Anyone try this combo? Devise a Strategem + Calculated Splash + perpetuals seems promising. It lets you use the optimal bomb for your degree of success. Something like Dread Ampoule or Acid Flask on a crit, bottled lightning on a hit, and a perpetual when you're just dealing the splash damage.
I haven't tried that combination, but I did find that bombs were fairly useful for an Investigator. Some interactions that need the GM to make a ruling on. But throwing a Bomb without a strategem was a fairly reasonable thing to do. And throwing one after knowing if it would hit meant not risking wasting expensive consumables.
I think you won't get much out of the combo.
First, if you realize that you'll miss, you'll just switch target like any weapon. As such, you reduce the advantage of damage on a miss.
Second, even if you can get the most out of Necrotic Bombs, truth is any weapon with Deadly or Fatal is a good one to use on a critical.
So, you don't really get anything better than any martial with Devise a Stratagem, and there's even a (small) negative interaction between both abilities.
And I don't speak of the crazy amount of tax feats the Alchemist asks for making the whole combo hard to come by without Free Archetype.
What I like about the combination is how it can stretch your Reagent budget.
I normally keep around three Batches to deal with unexpected circumstances through Quick Alchemy. Should I encounter something that requires a Bomb I didn't Advance Alchemy that morning, Devise a Stratagem would allow me to ascertain my success (or failure) *before* spending one of those three Batches with Quick Alchemy. That's fantastic.
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I always preferred Investigator with Alchemist MC since you can actually advance faster and higher in bomb strikes, plus Alchemical Sciences net you (I think) up to 9 more max level elixers for the day. Oh, and you get the Strategic Strike damage with your bombs that way also.
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I think you won't get much out of the combo.
First, if you realize that you'll miss, you'll just switch target like any weapon.
If there are multiple targets, sure. But that won't always be the case. Every fight leaves you with only one target left eventually. Even if there are alternative targets, switching means you still have a chance of "wasting" your good bomb.
Plus, even if you change targets, you're still trading a miss for a chance at a hit. That's good for all the reasons it is good with normal weapons and martials, PLUS it saves you reagents.
As such, you reduce the advantage of damage on a miss.
On the contrary, I think you can increase this advantage by not wasting good bombs. A level 1 and a level 3 bomb due the same damage until you get expanded splash in the mix. Resource conservation is always a good thing, especially if spending the resource doesn't actually change the outcome.
Second, even if you can get the most out of Necrotic Bombs, truth is any weapon with Deadly or Fatal is a good one to use on a critical.
Alchemists don't have native access to deadly or fatal weapons.
So, you don't really get anything better than any martial with Devise a Stratagem,
That isn't the point. It doesn't matter if the alchemist is better with DaS than a martial. What matters is if an alchemist with Das is better than an alchemist without it.
[quoute]And I don't speak of the crazy amount of tax feats the Alchemist asks for making the whole combo hard to come by without Free Archetype.
That is true.
That isn't the point. It doesn't matter if the alchemist is better with DaS than a martial. What matters is if an alchemist with Das is better than an alchemist without it.
Well, the verdict is the same. To illustrate it:
- If you roll a critical success to your DaS, you switch to a critical heavy bomb (Necrotic Bomb typically). But Alchemists rarely make critical successes on anything but nat 20.- If you roll a success, you lost an action.
- If you roll a failure, then you can do something else. You have saved an alchemical item but you lost the splash damage. Unfortunately, an alchemical item is worth the splash damage: if you model the damage an Alchemist does with a fully feated Bomb and the same Alchemist just shooting with a bow, you'll see that the difference between the expected damage is just a few points of damage. So you have just gained 5 points of MAP (if you have another target it's useful, otherwise it's another action lost).
- If you roll a critical failure, you can do something else and you have saved an Alchemical Item and 5 points of MAP.
And the whole "If you score a failure you can make a Perpetual Bomb and throw it." doesn't work as you just wasted a round to deal 5 points of damage. Perpetuals ask for 3 actions (1 for Quick Alchemy and 2 to attack), you can't use them with DaS unless you can use it as a free action (which doesn't happen really often).
Overall, the combo doesn't work well. Because the Splash damage accounts for nearly half of Bomb damage, anything that allows you to reroll your attack is weak. The Alchemist has to use his actions a lot, not plan on using them.
So, unless you take the Investigator Dedication for something else and just grab DaS because it's cheap, I encourage you to find another more fitting Dedication.
Inventor for example works well. You can grab Legendary Crafting + Reverse Engineer (to use Crafting for traps) and then Clockwork Celerity to be Quickened one round per fight. That's, in my opinion, way more valuable.
Setting aside the whole math analysis, I am curious about this.
Perpetuals ask for 3 actions (1 for Quick Alchemy and 2 to attack), you can't use them with DaS unless you can use it as a free action (which doesn't happen really often).
Why does perpetual bombs require two actions to attack?
I'm still seeing it use Quick Alchemy. Which is only one action. And throwing a bomb is also only one action. That still leaves one action for Devise a Strategem if desired and available.
But I haven't ever played an alchemist, so maybe I am missing something.
I’d love to hear feedback on people’s on play experiences with Devise a stratagem. My own made it abundantly clear that the action cost was doubly punishing because in many fights there is no one else to effectively attack and you probably could have just decided to move, demoralize, Bon Mot, etc first and then just attacked twice for as effective a result. I tried it with a Arquebus investigator agent of Alkenstar and I feel like my inability to attack boss creatures effectively contributed heavily to our party’s TPK and abandonment of the campaign
In other words, bombs feel like something to spam as much as possible with the splash damage and variety for useful damage types. Deciding not to throw it, because you are likely to miss, can really throw off your whole round, while throwing a second bomb and getting just splash damage on both will often be more effective
In other words, bombs feel like something to spam as much as possible with the splash damage and variety for useful damage types. Deciding not to throw it, because you are likely to miss, can really throw off your whole round, while throwing a second bomb and getting just splash damage on both will often be more effective
Well, you don't have to use it if there is only 1 target or pick a bomb to use based off the miss effect: for instance, if you know it's a miss, you could toss that new skunk bomb from the treasure vault that affects everyone in the splash AND sickens on a save success.
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I'm also working with the assumption you don't want to throw 3 bombs a turn. I know that's a bad idea at low levels but it still seems questionable at higher levels... But maybe a bomber has enough reagents to not care about that.
I’d love to hear feedback on people’s on play experiences with Devise a stratagem.
I find Devise a Strategem to be ... unreliable - at least for attacking with.
Hunter Automaton using the ancestry claw attack - so it does 1d4 base damage. Which is less than the 1d6 Precise Strike damage. I could probably build for higher damage if I wanted to, but my role in the party wasn't to deal massive damage. There were others for that.
I did also pick up Wizard dedication so I have cantrips to use. Especially if Devise comes up bad.
Also the adventure gives a lot of bombs as loot. So I quite often had several of those available to use at range.
With all of that combined, my strategy was to typically hang back from the front line. If Devise was a good roll, I could run forward and attack for some reasonable damage. If it turned out bad, I could use a cantrip or draw and throw a bomb that I picked up from somewhere - either for the splash damage or against a different enemy.
So it was pretty nice to be able to avoid putting myself at melee risk and then miss the attack roll. It became more of a defensive ability than an offensive one.
I don't think I miss at any higher frequency than other martials, though I do roll less often. Attacking once with weapons costs pretty much an entire turn.
I can actually do more in a turn if I attack with a cantrip or just throw a bomb with a spare action. Though both often end up being less damage - especially since I still miss with them at the normal rates.
But when I do go for a Strategem attack and roll well, it is fairly reasonable damage.
I'm also working with the assumption you don't want to throw 3 bombs a turn. I know that's a bad idea at low levels but it still seems questionable at higher levels... But maybe a bomber has enough reagents to not care about that.
At level 9, you have no problem tossing 2 bombs every round with quick alchemy and Perpetual Infusions: 3/round would require dipping into Advanced Alchemy premade items or bought ones: doable if you conserve for a boss or something [or have limited encounters/day].
It does feel like devise a stratagem requires a spell option for when you roll badly but still need to do some kind of attack. The problem with just attacking someone else is that it is usually at a penalty and you do no extra damage. The worst part is you can’t even use a hero point to reroll the important attack roll with the extra damage attached to it, so if that first roll is bad, your whole turn usually just feels lackluster. You have to do it every round too so it is hard to work in the extra skill actions that you get the skills for, but that could primarily be a failing if using a fire arm and having to running reload. Still with bombs, it feels like you’d want to throw 2 as often as possible
Perpetuals ask for 3 actions (1 for Quick Alchemy and 2 to attack), you can't use them with DaS unless you can use it as a free action (which doesn't happen really often).Why does perpetual bombs require two actions to attack?
Quick Alchemy produces 2 Bombs (at level 9). If you only produce one you lose a lot of potential, ending up with a very subpar use of your actions. Considering that Bombs thrown by an Alchemist are close to martial secondary attacks, 2 actions for a single Bomb is really subpar.
I'm also working with the assumption you don't want to throw 3 bombs a turn. I know that's a bad idea at low levels but it still seems questionable at higher levels... But maybe a bomber has enough reagents to not care about that.
The question of reagents is a complex one. But still, you have other things to do than just throw Bombs: Use Elixirs or Mutagens, some skill actions (you are especially good at RK), etc... Playing an Alchemist like a martial (maximizing Strikes) won't give great results. You have a lot of excellent things to do in parallel to bombing.
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Yeah, how good an Bomber Alchemist MC Investigator is is going to hinge on how often you can get the free devise a stratagem [unless you only have a few encounters a day and you don't need to use Quick Alchemy].