So recently my wife and I had gotten my infant son some Grogu pajamas. While staring at him I was inspired by the idea to try to do a take on Grogu, as a Goblin Psychic of course.
As I began attempting to build the character I looked up guides for help. While I was quite skilled at building characters in PF1, I am less adept at PF2.
At first I thought that Distant Grasp would be good and representative of the force powers. But eventually I saw Oscillating Wave and thought about the Goblin feat Burn It!
In the guide I was looking at they happened to recommend pairing with Sorcerer dedication for more spells (if you went charisma based, which seemed the natural choice with a goblin). So in thinking about this, I also found dangerous sorcery.
I realize dangerous sorcery wont apply to cantrips, but could this character really potentially apply the bonuses from Dangerous Sorcery, Burn It!, Oscillating Wave, and Unleash Psyche on a spell cast using psychic spell slots?
Check the wording of each ability very carefully. Some abilities specifically limit their effects to appropriate class spells. Others don't.
Also, be aware of bonus types (circumstance, item, and status) as multiple bonuses of the same type don't stack.
Since Burn It!, Dangerous Sorcery, and Unleash Psyche all provide status bonuses to damage, you would only use the higher damage of the three. Those two feats in turn won't work with the increased damage of Oscillating Wave's cantrips, since they require spell slots.
You could however turn a non-fire spell into a fire spell, then get Burn It!'s benefits to it.
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So dangerous sorcery probably isn't worth it, but the extra spell casting isn't necessarily a bad idea. I will have to look at class feats available at various levels to decide if the dedication is worth it.
Burn It is probably still good for when I'm not Unleashing Psyche.
And the way I read it, if you cast a spell granted by your conscious mind (Oscillating Wave) such as fireball (granted at 3rd level) it qualifies for the bonus from Oscillating Wave.
Oh never mind, I see your point and was thinking clearly. Oscillating Wave only has a damage increase for your cantrips. But, Oscillating Wave could make cold spells I cast into fire damage and allow them to qualify for Burn It.
So round one I could cast a spell qualifying for burn it, and round two I could Unleash Psyche (it's going to have a better damage bonus than Burn It) and get that.
So round one I could cast a spell qualifying for burn it, and round two I could Unleash Psyche (it's going to have a better damage bonus than Burn It) and get that.
Yep.
What's your take on sorcerer multiclass dedication for extra spells?
Worth it, or would you take class feats (I'm assuming no free archetype/dedication).
At 2nd level you could get Cantrip Expansion, Psi Burst, or Sorcerer/Bard Dedication. I think Psi Burst will be a redundant with two damage focused cantrips, although it's a save instead of an attack roll.
Then at level 4 all the class feat options are kind of lame, except Violent Explosion however you run a lot of friendly fire risks with it. So it's a great opportunity for basic spell dedication.
However, after this point it's less clear to me.
What are your thoughts on Bard vs Occult sorcerer dedications?
I do think if I can manage to be choosey about which class feats to take that the dedication for extra spells is probably worth it.
On a personal level I prefer sorcerer. More themes to branch into and I don't have to feel beholden to other players for their buffs.
The moment anyone hears "bard," they expect you to support them with buffs. Almost as bad as when people expect clerics to be little more than heal bots.
My character is far more than what it can bestow on your character gosh darnit!
The problem with bard/occult sorcerer as multiclasses is that the main spells tend to be buffs and debuffs and therefore care about your spell DC. However if you just want Magic Missile, True Strike and Invisibility, then that is not so much of an issue.
I don't really think there is much difference between Bard or Occult Sorcerer as a MC. It is all on what extra feats you want.
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If you're startign out as a Cha-based psychic, then they Bard and Occult Sorceror multiclasses are doing just fine for spell DC.
Personally, my suggestion would be... wait on it a bit? The psychic is all about not needing their slots as much as other casters do, and the archetypes aren't actually giving you the spell slots you'd really want more of anyway. If you decide that you really do want to have more lower-level spell slots, then sure, great, but how valuable is this, really?
The key thing about Psi Burst is that it's totally *not* redundant. It's a single action. You can cast it *and* a cantrip. Honestly, it's a solid reason for other casters with occult skill to archetype into Psychic. It's also mindshift, which means that you can use it to oscillate or not depending on which is more convenient for you.
Violent Unleash is a bit tricky to use right, as it wants you to be surrounded by foes and *not* friends, but if everyone in the party is packing resistance to fire rings, then....
That's some good advice. I missed that PsiBurst is a single action. I might not want to do it every turn, so I can reposition or anything like that, but it's a good option. I was thinking it would be in place of my cantrip attacks, but I hadn't realized it's single action which means it can be done with them. That is hella good.
I had considered that one of the best uses of multiclassing for spell slots would be to pick up more slots of True Strike, so I can make sure my heightened amped cantrip attack spells hit and don't waste the focus point.
But regarding getting more spell slots Saintyfaerie, I realize you have to spend more class feats to do it but you can keep progressing your casting. Even if it's not as good as base class progression. I think I would have to make the determination if the class feat or more spell slots has higher value for me.
As another question, what's the validity of using sorcerer to pickup say the arcane spell list rather than occult?
Arcane has some value in buffs, utility and saveless control like wall of stone.
As far as actual psychic class feats go, most are pretty awful so you have more than enough room to fit an archetype or two.
Also, psi burst is useless for other classes since it can only be used when psyche is unleashed. It can be a decent filler action for a psychic though.
As a general warning you should consider your GM's style before playing a psychic. If they prefer long encounters where you can't really leverage unleash psyche and/or short adventuring days (0-2 ten minute rests to refocus or heal) the class ends up significantly weaker.
Hmmm, I also failed to notice the psyche trait meaning Psi Burst can only be used during Unleash Psyche time. Which would mean it would compete with Fade Into Dreams (being concealed) as I have selected Wandering Reverie as my subconscious mind.
I'm trying to think about how a normal combat might go.
Round 1: Move into position and cast a spell (hopefully qualifying for Burn It).
Round 2 : Unleash Psyche as reaction, possibly move or Fade Into Dreams, and then cast Produce Flame Cantrip or something like Burning Hands.
Round 3: True Strike and amped Produce Flame.
I understand your point that if you don't get to refocus often (between most combats) it leaves you significantly weakened because I depend on amping my cantrips for damage.
The thing about archetyping for spell slots is that mostly what it's giving you is more gas. It's giving you a few more slots to throw around every day, if it turns out that your standard playstyle has you running out of spell slots. Okay. Cool.
The problem is *which* slots it's giving you. Let's look at level 8. Level 8 is the high point. It's the most gain for the least cost. It's the best you're ever going to get from spell archetyping.
At level 7, you finally cracked the seal on 4th level spells. At level 8, your class is giving you two spells of every level from 1st to 4th... and your archetype is giving you a first, a second, and a third. That's pretty nice in some ways. It's two feats, which is a pretty big chunk of what you have to spend at that point, but you have two extra cantrips out of it, and upping your "top two" tank from 4 to 5 is potentially valuable.
Well... then you get to wait. At level 11, your class is giving you a single sixth-level spell, and two each of everything below that, and 3rd level is *still* the best spell slot you're getting out of your archetype. At 12th level, you have the opportunity to spend a feat to get a *fourth*-level spell slot, and at 13th, your class has broken through to seventh. So... if your campaign is likely to end around eighth or ninth level, then it might be worth it? If you're going up to 15th or so, then archetype slots aren't going to be adding a lot to your ability to throw pain downrange.
Now, if there are specific comparatively low-level non-occult spells that you want access to for utility reasons or something, then it might be worth it... but at that point you might be better off just taking the archetype and then investing in wands/scrolls/whatever.
If you want more slots of True Strike... might I suggest a staff in one hand and a small stash of wands for the other? Go into battle with a wand and staff. Cast from wand first. When the fight's over, put away the exhausted wand and pull out a fresh one. A first-level magical wand will run you 60gp, and will pay for itself after 15 days of use. If you *really* want to work it, acquire a familiar to swap wands for you. Two feats into Witch will get you a cantrip, a familiar with two features, and a Basic Lesson.
...and it's also worth checking number of encounters per day with the GM. Just like focus spell effectiveness is strongly influenced by how often you get to refocus, slot spell effectiveness is strongly influenced by how many encounters you get per day.
I prefer to use multiclass slots for utility and non-scaling spells, personally.
Yeah, I'm leaning towards multiclass for spell slots with Arcane spell list, because it will open up a lot of opportunities for scrolls/wands etc of spells that aren't on the occult list. And I can use those slots for more support and keep Psychich slots for directly assailing the enemy.
Although if I choose another occult spell list class to multiclass with the spell slots would have the same attack roll and spell DC, but the multiclass would only be providing lower level spells which generally aren't going to be as effective in harming/controlling the enemy as higher level slots. And at the end of the day the Psychic is meant to primarily contribute by using their amped cantrips to do stuff each combat. So being able to refocus between every fight is going to be essential to the persistent combat capability of the character.
I'll note that you don't actually need to buy the slots in order to get wands and scrolls. The cantrip you get off of the dedication feat will do it. Also, if you're not intending to use any attack spells off of your archetype, then it doesn't have to be cha-based. Again, might be worth taking a look through the Witch options for Basic Lesson.
Huh. I just realized... I think you can get wand/scroll access off of ancestry innate spells. Someone check me on this?
I'll note that you don't actually need to buy the slots in order to get wands and scrolls. The cantrip you get off of the dedication feat will do it. Also, if you're not intending to use any attack spells off of your archetype, then it doesn't have to be cha-based. Again, might be worth taking a look through the Witch options for Basic Lesson.
Huh. I just realized... I think you can get wand/scroll access off of ancestry innate spells. Someone check me on this?
I suppose it's true it wouldn't need to be charisma based, but I wouldn't have any other mental stats would let me qualify (as a goblin psychic I will have 18 charisma, 10 wisdom, and 12 int. I do plan to increase wisdom at level ups (int will stay 12) but it would be a while before I would qualify for other dedications (they all look to require 14 in the casting stat). And I'm not terribly interested in Divine or Primal spell lists for this kind of character. Primal tends to have a lot of attack spells which I think I will be set for. Divine is a lot of buff. Arcane and Occult are more the right feel.
But also if I'm going to take the archetype, it's really to get the spell slots not just wands and scrolls. Even if the spell slots lag behind, some low levels buff/utility spells heightened to higher levels can be especially useful.
Regarding innate spells letting you cast them via wand, it looks like maybe. But only for the innate spells you have. Not for other spells. Like a gnome with first world magic gains an innate primal cantrip. You could maybe cast that from a wand (debatable whether you have a spell list) but definitely not other spells.
Also Witch lessons would be bad on a psychic. Because all the hexes are focus spells, and if you spend a focus point on something other than amping your psychic cantrips (or other psychic abilities) it screws you ability to refocus and regain multiple focus points in one go.
Plus I want to spend my focus points on my psi cantrips, so gaining a competing pool of abilities for the same very limited resource just doesn't seem good.
And I wont have the int to qualify for it. Like ever. Unless I make a special effort, because the plan is for a goblin charisma based psychic.
But also if I'm going to take the archetype, it's really to get the spell slots not just wands and scrolls. Even if the spell slots lag behind, some low levels buff/utility spells heightened to higher levels can be especially useful.
Regarding innate spells letting you cast them via wand, it looks like maybe. But only for the innate spells you have. Not for other spells. Like a gnome with first world magic gains an innate primal cantrip. You could maybe cast that from a wand (debatable whether you have a spell list) but definitely not other spells.
For spell slots... I'll admit that I am biased against spell slots in general, but... which utility spells would you be looking at to heighten?
As for innate spells... how do you reach that conclusion? If we take a look at the spellscale kobold heritage (for example), we get "Choose one cantrip from the arcane spell list." The wand text just says "
To cast a spell from a wand, it must be on your spell list. Because you’re the one casting the spell, use your spell attack roll and spell DC. The spell is of your tradition." A spellscale kobold has a tradition, has a spell attack roll/DC (they're trained) and has a spell list that they selected from (once). What's missing?
Also Witch lessons would be bad on a psychic. Because all the hexes are focus spells, and if you spend a focus point on something other than amping your psychic cantrips (or other psychic abilities) it screws you ability to refocus and regain multiple focus points in one go.
Plus I want to spend my focus points on my psi cantrips, so gaining a competing pool of abilities for the same very limited resource just doesn't seem good.
And I wont have the int to qualify for it. Like ever. Unless I make a special effort, because the plan is for a goblin charisma based psychic.
You're totally right. Witch would be terrible for you.
I'd been confused all this while. I'd thought that the basic lesson was the focus cantrip rather than the focus spell.
I'd argue somebody with innate spells, and innate spells only, can only use wands/scrolls of that innate spell. That innate spell is the only spell on their spell list.
For the spellscale kobold specifically, it says "choose one cantrip from the arcane spell list". That's a spell list right there. Why does that not count?
I mean, if you want to argue that, say, spellscale kobolds get the full set, and other more constrained ancestries do not, then that's a different discussion to have, but it didn't appear that that was what you were arguing. For this case, then?
But also if I'm going to take the archetype, it's really to get the spell slots not just wands and scrolls. Even if the spell slots lag behind, some low levels buff/utility spells heightened to higher levels can be especially useful.
Regarding innate spells letting you cast them via wand, it looks like maybe. But only for the innate spells you have. Not for other spells. Like a gnome with first world magic gains an innate primal cantrip. You could maybe cast that from a wand (debatable whether you have a spell list) but definitely not other spells.
For spell slots... I'll admit that I am biased against spell slots in general, but... which utility spells would you be looking at to heighten?
As for innate spells... how do you reach that conclusion? If we take a look at the spellscale kobold heritage (for example), we get "Choose one cantrip from the arcane spell list." The wand text just says "
To cast a spell from a wand, it must be on your spell list. Because you’re the one casting the spell, use your spell attack roll and spell DC. The spell is of your tradition." A spellscale kobold has a tradition, has a spell attack roll/DC (they're trained) and has a spell list that they selected from (once). What's missing?Also Witch lessons would be bad on a psychic. Because all the hexes are focus spells, and if you spend a focus point on something other than amping your psychic cantrips (or other psychic abilities) it screws you ability to refocus and regain multiple focus points in one go.
Plus I want to spend my focus points on my psi cantrips, so gaining a competing pool of abilities for the same very limited resource just doesn't seem good.
And I wont have the int to qualify for it. Like ever. Unless I make a special effort, because the plan is for a goblin charisma based psychic.
You're totally right. Witch would be terrible for you.
I'd been confused all this while. I'd thought that the basic lesson was the focus cantrip rather...
A couple examples that come to mind are longstrider and mage armor. I'm sure there are others. I'm not well versed, and I guess I shouldn't say specifically for heightening spells but rather just extra spell slots for buffs and utility could be nice.
Regarding why innate spells (probably) don't let you use wands/scrolls or at best only let you use a wand/scroll of that spell is they don't give you a spell list. They typically let you choose a single spell from a spell list. At best I would say your spell list is that individual spell, not for instance the whole of the arcane spell list (in the example of spellscale Kobold).
So to me the two options are:
1) Innate spells don't grant a spell list, you can't use wand/scroll
2) Innate spells grant a spell list containing only that spell, not the wider list it's pulled from. So you'd be limited to only items for that spell. (This is my preferred interpretation actually).
3) Option 3 is that you get the entire spell list that the spell is pulled from, but there's nothing to indicate that's the case and so I didn't even include it in my earlier statement because to me it's not an actual option. I just don't see an argument for it.
You sound like you're saying you think it's option 3, up until you're last post which might be interpreted as pushing for option 2. I don't think option 2 is strongly supported, but it's still my preference because it doesn't make sense to me that you have the innate magic to cast your arcane cantrip, but don't have enough understanding to use an item that does the same.
I do think it's option 3. I think it's generally agreed that taking a cantrip-granting dedication will result in opening up wand/scroll access (but not staff access), and I don't see where the rules would distinguish between that and what the kobold spellscale is giving you.
also, cantrips and can't be put in wands or scrolls, so unless you get a slot spell, #2 is identical to #1.
/*******/
So... let's look at Mage Armor from an archetype for the moment. We'll assume that you spend your highest available slot that matters. Start with what you can get from the (roughly) equivalent PF2 Explorer's Clothing:
5th level: +1 AC
8th level: +1 AC/+1 saves
11th level: +2 AC/+1 saves
14th level: +2/+2
18th level: +3/+2
20th level: +3/+3
And now the effects of armor cast from highest useful archetype slot:
4th level: +1 AC, level 1 spell slot. Equivalent to 5th level rune.
12th level: +1/+1, level 4 spell slot. Equivalent to 8th level rune.
16th level: +2/+1, level 6 spell slot. Equivalent to 11th.
20th level: +2/+2, level 8 spell slot. Equivalent to 14th.
It's potentially useful right at the beginning, first for getting that AC bump slightly early, and then for saving money for a little while, but after that...?
Longstrider is giving you a +10ft status bonus to speed. That's not bad, especially if you burn the level 2 spell slot on it to make it 8 hour duration. Starts getting a *little* pricey if you wind up needing it at two points in the day that are more than 8 hours apart, but that's pretty campaign-dependent. Mostly, though, it seems like a nice-to-have. Like, if you're already a mid-level caster, and your low-level spells are mostly gathering dust, then it's a great perk... but there's enough competition for movement that it doesn't seem like it would be enough reason to go that route in the first place.
I do think it's option 3. I think it's generally agreed that taking a cantrip-granting dedication will result in opening up wand/scroll access (but not staff access), and I don't see where the rules would distinguish between that and what the kobold spellscale is giving you.
also, cantrips and can't be put in wands or scrolls, so unless you get a slot spell, #2 is identical to #1.
You have a point that option 2 is practically the same as option 1 because cantrips can't go in wands and scrolls. However, the main reason a spell casting archetype/dedication gives you access to wands and scrolls is because of this:
Spellcasting Archetypes
Source Core Rulebook pg. 219 3.0
Some archetypes grant you spellcasting abilities, albeit delayed compared to a character from a spellcasting class. In this book, the spellcasting archetypes are bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard, but future books might introduce spellcasting archetypes that aren't multiclass archetypes. A spellcasting archetype allows you to use scrolls, staves, and wands in the same way that a member of a spellcasting class can, and the basic spellcasting feat counts as having a spellcasting class feature.
This pretty explicitly says you get it the way someone who took it as their primary class does. Without that line, I wouldn't allow it until they took the basic spell casting feat and got a spell list.
Innate spells mention nothing of the sort, and doesn't mention anything about giving or having a spell list. It usually just says something along the lines of "pick a cantrip from X spell list to cast".
Of course, I also think not allowing cantrips as wands or scrolls is kind of silly. It wouldn't ever be cost efficient, but I can't see a good reason to disallow it.
You have a point that option 2 is practically the same as option 1 because cantrips can't go in wands and scrolls. However, the main reason a spell casting archetype/dedication gives you access to wands and scrolls is because of this:
Spellcasting Archetypes
Source Core Rulebook pg. 219 3.0
Some archetypes grant you spellcasting abilities, albeit delayed compared to a character from a spellcasting class. In this book, the spellcasting archetypes are bard, cleric, druid, sorcerer, and wizard, but future books might introduce spellcasting archetypes that aren't multiclass archetypes. A spellcasting archetype allows you to use scrolls, staves, and wands in the same way that a member of a spellcasting class can, and the basic spellcasting feat counts as having a spellcasting class feature.This pretty explicitly says you get it the way someone who took it as their primary class does. Without that line, I wouldn't allow it until they took the basic spell casting feat and got a spell list.
Innate spells mention nothing of the sort, and doesn't mention anything about giving or having a spell list. It usually just says something along the lines of "pick a cantrip from X spell list to cast".
That...
Okay. That's fair. Given that they call it out specifically for the one and not the other, I'm going to have to accept that the weight of evidence is on "not 3".
Ah, well. So much for that silly idea. Thanks for the correction.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying it's definite proof but in my opinion I don't see any strong supporting evidence that innate spells provide you with a spell list.
It's kind of funny, because even the spell casting classes don't have specific wording like "you have the arcane spell list" instead it kind of dances around it and just assumes you understand you have the arcane spell list by saying you can add spell to your spell book from the arcane list (referencing Wizard). But I think most everyone would agree that even though it's not explicit, spell casting classes (not archetypes/dedications) obviously have whatever spell list is associated with the class. And the archetypes make it obvious that you can do the same as the base class.
However, it's worth remembering that a single class feat can get you access to all the wands and scrolls of a spell that you could ever want and 0 checks to use them. That's pretty amazing for buff and utility spells.
And you can always buy scrolls of heightened versions of spells (at least I don't see anything preventing it).