Houserule - Primal Tradition Oracle

[Twiggies]

Tldr; Would giving Flames Oracles and Tempest Oracles the Primal tradition instead of Divine make anything weird/too strong/too weak?

Was looking at how sad it was for Flames Oracle and Tempest Oracle where they have so few spells within the divine spell list for their mystery and overall theme. Considering that some other classes have options for different spell traditions I thought it was lame for these two in particular who basically need to feat tax the deific spells to actually get stuff (well more than like 4 spells spread out) that works with their mystery.

So I thought to houserule it so that these two get given the Primal spell list instead of the Divine spell list. Just wanted some opinions. Do you guys think that'd cause any major or minor issues or should it be fine?

[aobst128]

Other than the flavor being stretched kinda far for a divine class, It probably wouldn't be too bad. You just have essentially a weird primal sorcerer now. Or maybe a charisma druid, depending on how you want to flavor it.

[Pirate Rob]

Divine is the worst spell list, swapping it out for primal is a power increase.

Given the problems with the oracle chassis I'm not especially bothered by it though.

[Gortle]

The thing is most Oracles are going to pick up a couple of good spells via Divine Access at level 4, even multiple times.

So when you say that Divine is the worst spell list (and I agree) you need to realise that every Divine caster has ways of adding a few good spells to the list. Its pretty common to pick up True Strike, or Fireball or Lightning bolt. Spells which are pretty good at any level.

Basically what I am saying is you don't need to do it. The spells you want are available. In fact if you look at the individual spell entries in Archive of Nethys it actually tells you the Deities that grant that spell.

Is your proposition too strong? No. The difference in the spell lists is not as much as people make out.

[SuperBidi]

I agree with Gortle. I've mostly played Divine casters (my main and 4th characters are ones) and the spell list is more interesting than it looks like at first glance. It's also true that nearly all divine casters can add a bunch of spells from other traditions (only Summoners and Witches can't).

Switching from Divine to Primal is obviously a strong change in terms of available spells but not one that will imbalance the game. I'd just bar Divine Access from the available feats as it's obviously related to Divine but also because Primal casters are not supposed to cherry pick spells from other traditions.

[cavernshark]

SuperBidi wrote:

I agree with Gortle. I've mostly played Divine casters (my main and 4th characters are ones) and the spell list is more interesting than it looks like at first glance. It's also true that nearly all divine casters can add a bunch of spells from other traditions (only Summoners and Witches can't).

Switching from Divine to Primal is obviously a strong change in terms of available spells but not one that will imbalance the game. I'd just bar Divine Access from the available feats as it's obviously related to Divine but also because Primal casters are not supposed to cherry pick spells from other traditions.

I agree that allowing the swap from divine to primal probably won't break the game, but the rational you're providing isn't backed up at all by the actual game. There's no hidden rule stating that "primal casters shouldn't be able to get spells from other lists." Every single primal class has built in ways to access it even before you get into archetypes like the Magaambyan Attendant and Halcyon Speaker.

Primal witches can grab spells from several lists via Lessons.
Primal sorcerers can get them from their bloodline (notably Fey/Nymph get a lot of arcane/occult spells) or from the Crossblooded Evolution feat.
Druids can accessa handful of illusions the via a level 8 feat.
Primal summoners can access illusions and enchantments with a Fey Eidolon.

So I don't really think it's fair to say that Primal isn't meant to go cross-tradition.

To the OP: An alternative approach would be to simply give your players the cleric ability to worship a deity and access their spells natively without needing to take Divine Access. This avoids the wholesale spell list swap. Oracles could still benefit from Divine Access by getting access to a second deity. Entirely homeruled, but it's a shorter throw and potentially less unbalancing.

[Gortle]

cavernshark wrote:

An alternative approach would be to simply give your players the cleric ability to worship a deity and access their spells natively without needing to take Divine Access. This avoids the wholesale spell list swap. Oracles could still benefit from Divine Access by getting access to a second deity. Entirely homeruled, but it's a shorter throw and potentially less unbalancing.

A new custom Deity? An easier path that better fits the system.

[PlantThings]

What cavernshark proposed is a nice middle ground to test before fully swapping lists. Essentially, you allow your Oracles to get one Divine Access feat for free from the get go while still allowing them to take it additional times in the future. You can even give them extra free Divine Access feats at certain levels, almost like a class feature, if one isn't enough. This seems like the least disruptive change since it's just repurposing a feat the Oracle already has.

From there, if you still feel it's lacking, you can then make custom deity spell lists like Gortle said. I'd look through the Elemental spell list, personal stave rules, and the appropriate traits for those particular mysteries (fire for Flames and water/air for Tempest) for inspiration and guidelines.

[SuperBidi]

cavernshark wrote:

Primal witches can grab spells from several lists via Lessons.

Primal sorcerers can get them from their bloodline (notably Fey/Nymph get a lot of arcane/occult spells) or from the Crossblooded Evolution feat.
Druids can accessa handful of illusions the via a level 8 feat.
Primal summoners can access illusions and enchantments with a Fey Eidolon.

You're right, I should rephrase in "Divine casters can more easily poach spells from other traditions".

I mean, comparing Blessed Blood, a first level feat giving you 3 spells among 250 different lists, and Crossblooded Evolution, a level 8 feat giving a single spell of your choice, clearly shows that getting spells from other traditions is way easier for Divine caster.

And Divine Access, like Blessed Blood, is allowing you to get spells from deity spell lists, this ability is limited only to Divine casters as of now and I think it's by design (I consider that the Divine list is giving such accesses to compensate it's limited size).

[Twiggies]

Thanks folks for all the opinions and thoughts and stuff. Appreciate it. Might try what cavernshark proposed.

While I know that Oracles are able to get spells via the Divine Access feat, my issue with it for the two aforementioned oracle mysteries is that it feels like a *tax* just to give them spells fitting and thematic for their mystery (and in fact, the kinds needed for some benefits), whilst for other mysteries it's more like a neat thing you pick up, not feeling as mandatory, if that makes sense? Plus it also potentially locks them out of newer fire/stormy spells that come out.