The verbal description of this says "This book contains the formulas (page 293) for Crafting the common items in this chapter." The footnote to Table 6-13: Formulas says "Formulas for all 0-level common items from this chapter can be purchased collectively in a basic crafter’s book." So is the Basic Crafter's book limited to level 0 items or not?
No it's also includes some lvl 1 formulas. You can see the note in AoN explaining it better. But it's basically has all lvl 0 core book formulas + some lvl 1 alchemical and magical formulas.
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Do NOT try to get away with this without talking to your GM or in any PFS game because the cost for getting all of those formulas on Alchemical and Magical Items is something like 99% off the printed and intended price for those Formulas.
1 sp for 17 gp (or 170 sp) worth of level 1 Formulas is just way WAY outsize in terms of balance, not to mention it renders completely meaningless the various Alchemical and other Crafting Class and Feat abilities that add those very same Formulas.
Those items are listed in that chapter to make it easier to find them for new players and the full write-up of them isn't even present in that Chapter at all but instead are actually sourced to the Crafting and Treasure Chapter. This, I believe, is simply a bad call by the Nethys team who somehow failed to look into where all of those have their rules/stats listed in full form or evaluate the cost difference between them.
As is, someone could buy a Basic Crafters Book, tear out all of the level 1 Formulas and sell them for 50% of their value and get 5 sp (5x the total cost of the whole book) for every one of them for about 8.5 gp profit on each book. This is an infinite money glitch/exploit and is EASILY one of those things that fall under the umbrella of too good to be true.
There are some level 2 and level 3 items in chapter 6 (armor in particular I remember). Are the formulas for these in the basic book?
Probably you are talking about the full plate (lvl 2) and level 3 adventure gear that's in same chapter.
The book includes they because they are inside the requirements of "This book contains formulas for Crafting common items from Chapter 6 of the Core Rulebook".
Themetricsystem wrote: Do NOT try to get away with this without talking to your GM or in any PFS game because the cost for getting all of those formulas on Alchemical and Magical Items is something like 99% off the printed and intended price for those Formulas.
1 sp for 17 gp (or 170 sp) worth of level 1 Formulas is just way WAY outsize in terms of balance, not to mention it renders completely meaningless the various Alchemical and other Crafting Class and Feat abilities that add those very same Formulas.
Those items are listed in that chapter to make it easier to find them for new players and the full write-up of them isn't even present in that Chapter at all but instead are actually sourced to the Crafting and Treasure Chapter. This, I believe, is simply a bad call by the Nethys team who somehow failed to look into where all of those have their rules/stats listed in full form or evaluate the cost difference between them.
As is, someone could buy a Basic Crafters Book, tear out all of the level 1 Formulas and sell them for 50% of their value and get 5 sp (5x the total cost of the whole book) for every one of them for about 8.5 gp profit on each book. This is an infinite money glitch/exploit and is EASILY one of those things that fall under the umbrella of too good to be true.
No the Nethys team don't miss understand. They they interpreted exactly like is write in Basic Crafter's Book description: "This book contains formulas for Crafting common items from Chapter 6 of the Core Rulebook" (in the is book is write "from this chapter").
I also feel this is unbalanced but it's clearly allowed by RAW in all 3 prints + AoN (and they made clear in a note). So unless a specific GM denies or an errata changes it it's exactly how it's works.
But it's not so good as it appear. The craft rules still requires that the char meets the level requirements to craft itens, and Alchemical Crafting feat for alchemical itens and Magical Crafting feat (lvl 2) for magical itens. So even knowing the formulas the player still need level, feats and money to craft.
Formula was never a too restrict thing specially because some levels later Inventor feat cut's their cost by half and Craft Anything feat ignores them.
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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
The rules clearly allow for it.
I don't think it invalidates those feats at all, as (1) you still need them, and (2) they allow you to get other items outside the Core Rulebook (or higher than 1st-level).
If anything this item expands your ability to use those feats more effectively.
I do think it's kinda crazy that I'm being called stingy for a strict ruling that prevents a 1sp item from granting 17gp worth of value of Formulas that are otherwise things that are granted by Feats and Class Features.
Also, check page 292 and 293, Alchemical Gear and Magical Gear: Those sections VERY specifically state...
Alchemical Gear wrote: The items listed on table 6-11 are the most widely available alchemical items from Chapter 11, which a 1st-level character could likely access. Magical Gear wrote: The items listed on table 6-12 are the magic items from Chapter 11, that a 1st-level character could most frequently access. Right there in the text it specifically says those items are NOT from Chapter 6 at all but are sourced to Chapter 11 which is where you will find all of the actual rules and stats for them. This is a mistake made by the Nethys team caused by the SRD generation method they use that discards a ton of the descriptions and explanations offered in table sub-sections. I would maintain that anyone who says that allowing these are allowed by RAW is, in my opinion, a victim of wishful thinking, intentionally trying to take advantage of a money exploit, failing to actually read what all of the relevant rules say, or some combination of them.
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Themetricsystem wrote: Alchemical Gear wrote: The items listed on table 6-11 are the most widely available alchemical items from Chapter 11, which a 1st-level character could likely access. Magical Gear wrote: The items listed on table 6-12 are the magic items from Chapter 11, that a 1st-level character could most frequently access. Right there in the text it specifically says those items are NOT from Chapter 6 at all but are sourced to Chapter 11 which is where you will find all of the actual rules and stats for them.
No, it does not. This is still a text in the Chapter 6 which says that these items and more are also in Chapter 11. Obviously.
I also don't care for the total cost of formulas: one single 0-level formula costs FIVE times more than the whole basic crafter's book. So now having them all for 1 sp is too good to be true? Nah. And so I see no problem in having also some 1st lvl item formulas there.
Also "Formulas for all 0-level common items from this chapter can be purchased collectively in a basic crafter’s book" does not contradict "This book contains the formulas for Crafting the common items in this chapter". Because it doesn't say that the book contains only 0-level common items. So it contains them and also the selection of 1st level common items in Chapter 6.
I agree with Themetricsystem. What would be the point of the Bomber and Chirurgeon studies stating that you begin with "two 1st level alchemical bombs" or "two of the following: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixir of life" if every 1st level bomb and all three of those formulas are in the basic crafter's book already?
No, the alchemical and magical items from chapter 11 are listed as a convenience for players gearing up their 1st level character, but they aren't gear from chapter 6 and so their formulas aren't included in the basic crafter's book
I would also rule that the note in table 6-13 about 0-level common items being purchased collectively in the book does limit what it contains. Otherwise, are we supposed to accept that formulas for level 17 items, the superior lock and manacles, supposedly 750gp formulas EACH, are also in the book? They're technically not marked uncommon, lol. 9_9 No, the most specific rule wins. Since that note in table 6-13 states, "formulas for all 0-level common items from this chapter can be purchased collectively in the basic crafter's book," and that is the most specific description of the book's contents, that's all it contains. That's already a steal. The 5sp price listed for 0-level formulas is for ones from other sources and a base price to use for calculating the price for uncommon or rarer formulas
Yeah magical and alchemical are not from chapter 6.
I wouldn't allow them either.
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Wild that people want to nerf crafting and Alchemists of all things.
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Not sure I follow the concern for an "infinite money glitch/exploit" risk?
If crafter's books are available inexpensively, as they are by RAW, then no-one will buy a single formula 'ripped from the book', they would just buy the crafter's book. There is essentially no market value for the low-level common item formulas and no exploit.
The crafter's book seems like just a convenient shorthand for "things that any crafty person can make", more or less.
Aside from which, crafting in 2e is already barely worth it. Leaning into the crafter's book seems extra useless
Crafting could certainly use a complete overhaul.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Ed Reppert wrote: Crafting could certainly use a complete overhaul. It's coming in Treasure Vault I hear.
I doubt it'll be a full overhaul. Tweaked maybe. I think the playtest had a way to make lower level things faster? That's about all I'd expect.
I'm not a huge fan of how Formulas were handled myself and would very much like to see them given at LEAST an optional rule system to handle/redefine them in TV but that's probably wishful thinking.
Removing the 4 days of no income would be enough for me.
HumbleGamer wrote: Removing the 4 days of no income would be enough for me. For me, I think what I would like most is a reduced crafting time for any/all Consumables as well as a reduction of days crafting for Items below your Character level.
We'll see though.
Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Themetricsystem wrote: HumbleGamer wrote: Removing the 4 days of no income would be enough for me. For me, I think what I would like most is a reduced crafting time for any/all Consumables as well as a reduction of days crafting for Items below your Character level.
We'll see though. Those both sound excellent.
I'd be down with Inventor letting you get Uncommon/Rare/Unique formulas with appropriate DC increases. The skill feat not the class.
Guntermench wrote: I'd be down with Inventor letting you get Uncommon/Rare/Unique formulas with appropriate DC increases. The skill feat not the class. I think this one will still require the DM approval.
Would be kinda off for them to give players a chance to bypass the rarity system they created by default.
Baarogue wrote: I would also rule that the note in table 6-13 about 0-level common items being purchased collectively in the book does limit what it contains. Otherwise, are we supposed to accept that formulas for level 17 items, the superior lock and manacles, supposedly 750gp formulas EACH, are also in the book? This could be a good point. But. I'm not sure lvl 17 lock and lvl 0 lock have different formulas. There's different formulas for "multiple types of different levels" items rule. But these 'types' are clear only for magical items with specifically formatted entries and the word 'type' in them. Does this apply to common equipment (yes, lvl 17 lock is common because nothing says otherwise)? I'm not sure.
Baarogue wrote: I agree with Themetricsystem. What would be the point of the Bomber and Chirurgeon studies stating that you begin with "two 1st level alchemical bombs" or "two of the following: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixir of life" if every 1st level bomb and all three of those formulas are in the basic crafter's book already? And that is a bad point. Because Squiggit is right, 'nerfing' basic crafting book would make it worse for Alchemists, not better: without full set of recipes in the book they would need to buy all low-level equipment formulas separately.
Errenor wrote: But. I'm not sure lvl 17 lock and lvl 0 lock have different formulas. I'm pretty sure that if you consulted with a real-world locksmith, and explained the concept of different "level" locks, he would say that they would have different formulas.
The more I think about this the more I'm inclined to go with the footnote to table 6-13: the basic crafter's book contains only level 0 formulas. But I await a definitive ruling from Paizo. See me over here in the corner, holding my breath and turning blue? :-)
Ed Reppert wrote: Errenor wrote: But. I'm not sure lvl 17 lock and lvl 0 lock have different formulas. I'm pretty sure that if you consulted with a real-world locksmith, and explained the concept of different "level" locks, he would say that they would have different formulas. Plus they require a different number of successes, even beyond the different DC.
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Errenor wrote: Baarogue wrote: I would also rule that the note in table 6-13 about 0-level common items being purchased collectively in the book does limit what it contains. Otherwise, are we supposed to accept that formulas for level 17 items, the superior lock and manacles, supposedly 750gp formulas EACH, are also in the book? This could be a good point. But. I'm not sure lvl 17 lock and lvl 0 lock have different formulas. There's different formulas for "multiple types of different levels" items rule. But these 'types' are clear only for magical items with specifically formatted entries and the word 'type' in them. Does this apply to common equipment (yes, lvl 17 lock is common because nothing says otherwise)? I'm not sure.
Baarogue wrote: I agree with Themetricsystem. What would be the point of the Bomber and Chirurgeon studies stating that you begin with "two 1st level alchemical bombs" or "two of the following: lesser antidote, lesser antiplague, or minor elixir of life" if every 1st level bomb and all three of those formulas are in the basic crafter's book already? And that is a bad point. Because Squiggit is right, 'nerfing' basic crafting book would make it worse for Alchemists, not better: without full set of recipes in the book they would need to buy all low-level equipment formulas separately. Will you help me understand what do you mean by "buy all low-level equipment formulas separately?" I'm not arguing against all 0-level common equipment formulas in the CR chapter 6 being in the book, and I don't believe anyone else here is either. That is, explorer's clothing and all light and medium armors on table 6-3 & 6-4 (9 items), all of the shields on table 6-5 (4 items), all common weapons on tables 6-7 & 6-8 (65 items if you include ammo recipes, which I do), all 0-level common adventuring gear on table 6-9 (67 items, since explorer's clothing is already accounted for in armors), and the light barding on table 6-18 (2 items). I don't think I'd phrase it as a nerf to restrict the recipes in a 1sp "basic" crafter's book to only 147 items ^_^
Aside from all of those 0-level formulas for equipment and gear, a 1st level alchemist also gets the Alchemical Crafting feat and the four common 1st level alchemy formulas granted by that feat (CR 72 under Alchemy), a formula book (different from the basic crafter's book) with two common 1st level alchemy formulas (in addition to those granted by Alchemical Crafting and their research field, CR 73 under Formula Book), and finally their research field grants two common 1st level formulas from their field (CR 73 under Research Field) which comes to a total of eight common 1st level alchemical formulas gained by feats and class features for free. Wizards gain ten cantrips and five (six if they're a specialist) 1st level spells
Contrast all of those gained formulas with how many aren't included: the heavy armors on table 6-4 (3 items; two level 1, one level 2), the higher-than-0-level adventuring gear on table 6-9 (27 items), and heavy barding on table 6-18 (2 items; one each level 2 and 3). All weapons are 0-level. The only ones not included are uncommon ones. So 32 items which are higher-than-0-level
That's pretty much why I said I think I'd go with level 0 formulas only. Also, other than the Alchemist class, you'd have to be second level to do any alchemical crafting and third to do any magical crafting, so it doesn't really make sense to me that you'd be carrying around formulas for that stuff from the git-go, when you can't use those formulas yet.
Baarogue wrote: Will you help me understand what do you mean by "buy all low-level equipment formulas separately?" Yes, all apart from 8 alchemical formulas they get for free. I mean of course alchemical and magical items you want to exclude from the book. That is 12 alchemical and 3 magical in case they would need them (can you craft (un)holy water?). Even with respectable number of 8 given, always having additional base 12 items for almost free is helpful.
Also, comparing to cantrips is nonsensical btw.
Errenor wrote: Baarogue wrote: Will you help me understand what do you mean by "buy all low-level equipment formulas separately?" Yes, all apart from 8 alchemical formulas they get for free. I mean of course alchemical and magical items you want to exclude from the book. That is 12 alchemical and 3 magical in case they would need them (can you craft (un)holy water?). Even with respectable number of 8 given, always having additional base 12 items for almost free is helpful. I understand, but I hope my list shows just how much the alchemist does get for free. You can craft (un)holy water, but naturally not until you take the Magical Crafting feat
Quote: Also, comparing to cantrips is nonsensical btw. I know that, and you know that, but I also knew if I didn't include them when I mentioned wizards someone would come in with "um, actually, cantrips exist" ^_^
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