I'm currently brainstorming a snare-based character build, and while I hope to have opportunities to successfully set up snares in choke points, I expect that there'll be plenty of times where that doesn't end up being possible. Foes will end up intentionally or unintentionally bypassing snares, and that means falling back on fighting them the old fashioned way. Or, alternatively, it means finding ways to push foes into snares mid-fight! That brings me to my question.
What is the most effective and reliable class for pushing foes around? (Either based on theorycrafting or experience). What's important to me is that it is relatively action-efficient, reliable, doesn't cost more than a couple feats at most, and starts working at a reasonably low level (<7). Here's what I've seen so far:
My initial impression is that the fighter with aggressive block has the most reliable (and lowest action-cost) shoving possible, especially after you get the two follow-up feats. However, this is a very reactive approach, and not only do you have little recourse if foes don't attack you, but it also requires you to get in melee. Brutish shove is a lot less reliable, but a lot more proactive.
Outside of the fighter, some clerics have pushing gust, which pushes even on a successful save, but it doesn't do anything other than that and therefore isn't a very efficient use of a turn. Arcane and primal get hydraulic push, which is a lot nicer of a one-two punch, but its far from reliable.
Any more ideas?
If your goal is simply to move the enemy into your snares, you can also consider wrestler dedication on the fighter for whirling throw at 8 or running monk for the same at 6.
If your goal is simply to move the enemy into your snares, you can also consider wrestler dedication on the fighter for whirling throw at 8 or running monk for the same at 6.
I like that it lets you throw right into the correct square, but it seems very unreliable - you have to have the creature grabbed first, and then you have to succeed at an athletics check, with no effect on failure.
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Depending on how your GM considers repositioning into snares, you also have the Swashbuckler Leading Dance at 4.
Rules about repositioning: "If you’re pushed or pulled, you can usually be moved through hazardous terrain, pushed off a ledge, or the like. Abilities that reposition you in some other way can’t put you in such dangerous places unless they specify otherwise."
It really depends on how the GM sees snares (and maybe also the enemy ability to know there's a snare in the first place).
Dwarf with Boulder Roll.
Its not even an attack so you can combine it with other maneuvers.
Boulder Roll is super reliable, but limited to creatures of your size or lower. So unless you're a Giant Barbarian, you won't push much.
Boulder Roll is super reliable, but limited to creatures of your size or lower. So unless you're a Giant Barbarian, you won't push much.
There are many ways of increasing your size....
Leading Dance seems quite good for this - you want to do it anyway to gain panache, you have control over the direction, and it's at least somewhat reliable (though not as much as other options). The GM interpretation is the big hurdle .
Unfortunately I'm already locked into ancestry feats, so boulder roll won't fit.
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Brutish shove from the fighter is also reliable since no roll.
Boulder Roll is super reliable, but limited to creatures of your size or lower. So unless you're a Giant Barbarian, you won't push much.There are many ways of increasing your size....
Many, yes, many easy to use, no.
Either you cast a spell so you basically lose a round of preparation. Or you have a specific Ancestry and a level 17 feat, so nothing you can use during most of your career.
A Dwarven Druid isn't going to have a problem. They can get it via Wildshape or Humanoid Form.
Regarding ancestries it comes at level 13 for some.
But curiously there is no potion of growth yet. There is a shrinking potion, invisibility potion .... Trying to work out why that is a problem.
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One thing Whirling Throw has for it is that it doesn't have the Attack trait, so you don't have to worry about your MAP, and you can even try again with no penalty as long as you don't crit fail. If you're pushing your Athletics modifier as high as you can, you can expect a decent chance of success. Get some way to Enlarge yourself (through a spell/item/etc) and you can really boost your chances.
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In general, if you're running snares everything, you should seriously consider Ranger just because of the way it allows you to get More Snares. Kobold is a pretty obvious racial, too.
Honestly, my suggestion would be to try to work out some party optimization. Having a bit of extra push for yourself is fine, but you'd really like to have someone *else* throwing the enemy onto your snares. Among other things, almost any martial reposition effects are going to be strength-based, but if you're going full-bore snares, you might want to go dex-heavy and focus on bows instead.
Various other thoughts:
- Animal companions? Cave Gecko has a forced-move pull. Positionins might be a bit tricky, and it does require that the animal companion be able to beat their fort DC with an athletics check, but it's not nothing. Also works well with the Ranger setup.
- Second the monk, ideally as a buddy. By all reports, whirling throw is a lot of fun. I'm quite certain that having a buddy setting out snares for you to drop enemies into would make it that much more fun. Bonus points if you have a third player playing as a caster with things liek Wall of Fire.
Various Spells:
- Gale Blast is a cantrip that has both damage nad a bit of pushback. As a cantrip, it's available to spellscale Kobolds as an innate spell, though that would require you to invest in charisma (and have some way of bumping your spellcasting proficiency)
- Command (lvl 1, but not incapacitating) can force an enemy to spend an action either coming towards you or running away.
- Gravitational Pull (lvl 1) offers a bit of forced move
- Hydraulic Torrent is lvl 4 spell, but it is reasonably damaging and also has a bit of pushback.
Lots of good ideas.
I thought about ranger, and while it does get additional snares, it doesn't have much else going for it that the snare master archetype doesn't offer (other than snare hopping). I plan to dig into ranger archetype if snare quantity is a problem. Kobold is of course a no brainer, thanks not only to getting more free snares, but also more riders when your snares go off.
Any particular reason why you feel dex is better for snares?
Spellcaster feats are less important, so dumping them toward snare optimization is pretty doable. I really like the idea of using command, hydraulic push and gravitational pull. Gravitational pull being 1 action is particularly nice because you can use it as a 3rd action at higher levels. Plus, if you play a Cha spellcaster, you can really leverage the 9th level kobold feat that gives you intimidation attempts as a reaction.
One other thing that's in the fighter's favor is the crit specialization effects - several of them push or move goes around.
Ranger gets some earlier, and its class DC goes up earlier than some others, though the archetype's more important IMO because of Surprise Snare (no need to push) and Giant Snare (best use of actions when you can hit multiple, and in their square). Snare Hopping is messier than it seems since you first have to get another Warden feat, and maybe have to skip Hunted Shot. The spell's a way to conserve snares, and if you have snares to spare, why bother? (Not that there aren't situations where TPing a snare somewhere wouldn't be strategic, but it does have to go to an unoccupied square at mediocre range.)
I prefer Ranger because having extra snares seems pretty important, at least if wanting to dole them out willy-nilly. And that is if going Dex since they're good archers, which meshes well with setting traps. Then one can use traps to cover melee needs.
If going Strength, then maybe Fighter. You'd be less snare-dependent, so wouldn't need the extra ones, and could use a polearm not just to reach across snares, but for its critical effect to move critters into snares (though check w/ your GM as noted by another poster above since it's not a push/pull effect). Not having a free hand loses some actions regripping your weapon, but you're also a Fighter, quite fine w/o the snares or only setting them early.
The playstyles differ so much it should be easy to choose which one suits your sensibilities or which gels best with your party's composition. (For PFS/random, a Ranger's skill would be better IMO, and melee PCs are common enough that that's covered.)
I'd suggest dex for snares if only because I'd suggest a ranged/bow focus for snares. Lets you run around, drop snares, and shoot the enemy without moving in to engage them.
Reasons to go Ranger when you're already going snarecrafter:
- Snare Specialist (lvl 4 instead of lvl 8, no archetype feat surcharge, no need to wait until your archetype unlocks) (4/6/8 extra snares)
- Quick Snares (lvl 6 instead of lvl 8): craft standard non-prepped snares in 3 actions
- Powerful Snares (lvl 8 instead of lvl 10): snare DC has floor of class DC
- Lightning Snares (lvl 12 instead of lvl 14): dropping snares is a single action (requires Quick)
- Ubiquitous Snares (lvl 16 feat): double the snares from Snare Specialist
- Impossible Snares (lvl 20 feat): lets you drop a prepped snare (even a particularly large one) effectively once per fight without expending it
That may or may not be enough for you, but it's not nothing.
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Dwarf Monk with Boulder Roll, Whirling Throw, Flurry of Manuvers, methods to increase your Size, and the Snarecrafter Archetype should give you options to be a real bully.
Don't forget to buy up a Ring of the Ram as well, that can help out quite a bit as even a success by the enemy saving throw still does damage and moves the opponent, you can do it up to 60 ft away from the target, it only costs 1 Action, and it's reusable once every minute (basically once per combat).
Rangers are a really good fit for snares.
-Their stereotypical skills are great for scouting and setting up snare in advance, though this isn't unique to them. Important feats are Survey Wildlife and Terrain Stalker.
-Rangers are the best switch hitters in the game and that works really well for snares. The most reliable way to trigger snares isn't gimmicky repositions. It planting them between you and the enemy and then getting the enemy to charge you. In 5 foot dungeon hallways your build doesn't matter for this. But in open terrain, raining down arrows from afar is the best way to get most enemies to attack you, and no one can rain them from as far as rangers.
Dwarf Monk with Boulder Roll, Whirling Throw, Flurry of Manuvers, methods to increase your Size, and the Snarecrafter Archetype should give you options to be a real bully.
Don't forget to buy up a Ring of the Ram as well, that can help out quite a bit as even a success by the enemy saving throw still does damage and moves the opponent, you can do it up to 60 ft away from the target, it only costs 1 Action, and it's reusable once every minute (basically once per combat).
For a snare-focused build, though, nothing compares to the kobold. Not even close.
...and kobolds are uncommon, so no adopted ancestry.
Good catch on Ring of the Ram, though.