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Well, for the purpose of Reflex saves alone I think it is a good compromise.
+3 will be as good if not even better than your Reflex save for most of your adventuring career, only at level 10-19 it will be a -1. Hardly something to worry about imo.
If you really want to shore up the weaknesses of Bulwark there is the Sentinel archetype.
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Bulwark only applies to damaging effects. In official Paizo adventures, Reflex saves that don't result in HP loss are few and far in between.
Trip and Disarm being notable example, Trip can be mitigated with Kip Up though.
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Bulwark is crazy good for STR PCs. I leave DEX at 10 and getting WIS & CON at 14 each. putting the boosts I save in CHA for Demoralize and social encounters.
Bulwark gives better Reflex than starting with a 14 DEX and continuously improving until level five, where it remain even until level 10. Increasing DEX just for Reflex is wasteful if your PC doesn't use DEX-based skills. Those ability boosts are best used elsewhere.
Bulwark only applies to damaging effects. In official Paizo adventures, Reflex saves that don't result in HP loss are few and far in between.
As a player when I get a chance I tend to pick my stats to get 14 in my saves attributes and 18 in my key attributes.
Now you may argue thats unessary but enemy dc especially for bosses feel fairly high and avoiding a critical failure is fairly important.
So I really struggle with classes like the paladin who could benefit for 5 good attributes and I have to make a trade off between charisma and dexterity.
The obvious compromise is bulwark but I was wondering how well do people feel it allows you to tank dexterity and how often relying on it lead to disaster?
I started with a 14 Dexterity for my Champion because I took Fighter dedication for Lunge via Reach weapon. As such, Bulwark didn't give me as much of a benefit as my Dexterity already did (a mere +1 on damaging effects).
That being said, I definitely could tell the moment my Reflex Saves were my glaring weakness, which was at 15th level. So, I took Canny Acumen for it, and grinned and bore it for 2 more levels to make my Reflex Saves into Master proficiency. It didn't give me as much protection as Evasion does, but not (critically) failing Reflex Saves that much more often gave me the staying power I needed.
In my opinion, Fighters are more tanky than Champions. Evasion really is that overpowered.
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In my opinion, Fighters are more tanky than Champions. Evasion really is that overpowered.
Champion's tankiness drops at high level because of their lack of saves. But overall their whole carreer, they are better tanks than Fighters: Evasion comes late, and you need to improve Dexterity if you want to have decent chances of success to trigger it.
Also, at high level you are expected to have some resistances (at least against the most common energies) strongly reducing the damage taken when you succeed at a save.
In my opinion, Fighters are more tanky than Champions. Evasion really is that overpowered.Champion's tankiness drops at high level because of their lack of saves. But overall their whole carreer, they are better tanks than Fighters: Evasion comes late, and you need to improve Dexterity if you want to have decent chances of success to trigger it.
Also, at high level you are expected to have some resistances (at least against the most common energies) strongly reducing the damage taken when you succeed at a save.
In terms of AC, Fighters are just as tanky as Champions until 7th level, equal them by 11th level again, and lose out from 13th level onward by the same value of 2. So for 8 of the 20 levels, a Fighter has equal AC to Champion, and that's true in the first 6 levels of overall gameplay. The fact a Champion needs to wait 7 levels for their AC to actually pan out over others is pretty bad design IMO, when a Fighter never has an optimal to-hit lower than anyone in the game at any given point in the game's progression (assuming they're using their chosen weapon group).
For Saves, their Fortitude is identical through and through. Short of a choice in Constitution score, anyway. Reflex, Fighters have 2 higher than Champion until 9th level (or if they take Canny Acumen prior to that level), and tie out until 15th level. (If the Champion took Rogue dedication, they could take Evasiveness at 12th level for Master Reflex Saves 5 levels earlier.) With Canny Acumen, the value might be the same at 17th level, but Evasion does so much more than Canny Acumen ever could. Champions do have superior Will Saves for the first 2 levels, but Bravery equals that out until 11th level, and with Canny Acumen, by 17th level, Bravery is just Resolve-lite, which is more than enough given most Will saves are indeed Fear effects.
When a Reflex Save does 60 damage on a success in the late game, what's more survivable, resistance 15 if it's a common energy type (which Mental, Poison, Sonic, and Negative certainly aren't common resistances to have, and they certainly exist), or an effective unlimited resistance against any damage type ever conceived, even untyped? Evasion really is that powerful, if not moreso. When a Champion is taking upwards of 45 damage per Reflex Save (assuming resistances apply), and a Fighter isn't taking that damage, you can't tell me that a Champion becomes a superior tank due to 2 AC.
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When a Reflex Save does 60 damage on a success
You mean level 10 Finger of Death with Dangerous Sorcery? 55 damage on a success, but a Fortitude one.
Or level 10 Debilitating Dichotomy, 47 damage on a success on average, so potentially more on a good roll. Unfortunately, you're looking for Resolve for this one.Ho, found it: Meteor Swarm. 41 damage on a success if you take one meteor, but 74 damage if you take 3 of them and even 90 if you take all four. Unfortunately, you need to be large or huge for that to happen.
Now, if we speak of an actual spell that blasts a lot: Eclipse Burst: 32 damage on a success, mostly Cold but also Negative. So your 15 points of resistance reduces the damage by half and you can even grab a few points of Negative resistance to end up with nearly no damage.
Obviously, Evasion is better, but it's not like you were taking a crazy amount of damage anyway, 17 damage at these levels is not even a scratch.
When you succeed at the save, blasts don't deal that much damage if you have the proper resistance.
Lay on hands and the Champion's reaction are great for the Tank role. The Fighter has nothing like these.
Like the Fighter needs them, they already have Master Perception (making them more likely to go first in combat) and 2 Master Saving Throws (3 with Canny Acumen at 17th), with 2 of those 3 having Evasion/Juggernaut, and the third having Resolve-lite via Bravery, and could even be shored up with Talismans if so desired. Compared to a Champion, the Fighter takes less damage from Saves, which deal a lot more unmitigated damage. So if you fight an enemy with a lot of Saving Throw abilities (or several enemies that chain such effects), that Champion is getting wrecked, while the Fighter may suffer a few scratches if he rolls bad.
Champion's Reaction only works for protecting others from damage, not yourself (unless you are a Desecrator, but 1 out of 6 Champions isn't a realistic number to actuate this being reliable), and Lay On Hands provokes AoO, resulting in even more damage, and can be disrupted on a Crit, resulting in no healing and wasted actions (on top of even more damage). Even if they have the highest AC, and are the least likely to be Crit, it's still a possibility with higher level enemies, the ones you are most likely to try and heal yourself with since they hit more often, and for more damage.
When a Reflex Save does 60 damage on a successYou mean level 10 Finger of Death with Dangerous Sorcery? 55 damage on a success, but a Fortitude one.
Or level 10 Debilitating Dichotomy, 47 damage on a success on average, so potentially more on a good roll. Unfortunately, you're looking for Resolve for this one.
Ho, found it: Meteor Swarm. 41 damage on a success if you take one meteor, but 74 damage if you take 3 of them and even 90 if you take all four. Unfortunately, you need to be large or huge for that to happen.Now, if we speak of an actual spell that blasts a lot: Eclipse Burst: 32 damage on a success, mostly Cold but also Negative. So your 15 points of resistance reduces the damage by half and you can even grab a few points of Negative resistance to end up with nearly no damage.
Obviously, Evasion is better, but it's not like you were taking a crazy amount of damage anyway, 17 damage at these levels is not even a scratch.When you succeed at the save, blasts don't deal that much damage if you have the proper resistance.
It's kind of sad when not even Cataclysm, another high level Reflex Save spell, does acceptable damage for its level, and is far more unwieldy than an equivalent Meteor Swarm. 9D10 and 12D10 for an average of 115 on a failure is pretty lackluster compared to 7D10 and 16D6 for an average of 94 damage on a failure. Especially if an enemy has Resistance 15 to each of those types of energy damage, which is reduced to 95 for Cataclysm, and 79 for Meteor Swarm for a failure. So with a Success, it only does 37 damage for Cataclysm and 32 for Meteor Swarm, after all is said and done? And Meteor Swarm does that damage with only one actual Meteor; if it was multiple meteors on the target, it'd be higher than Cataclysm. Yikes. Cataclysm would be even worse regardless without ignoring 10 Resistance clause it possesses.
Eclipse Burst is just as unwieldy as Cataclysm, and actually even weaker as well for an equivalent level, since it does 11D10 and 11D4, which is an average total of 88 damage, 44 on a Success. With a Resistance 15 Cold ring, it's reduced to 29, and if you have any Negative Resistance (which is extremely rare unless you have special options already chosen for it), it's even lower. That being said, with Undead spellcasters like Liches, they are prone to cast this unto others while being in close range, making it more likely for a Champion Reaction to occur, reducing the damage even further, to where it's borderline useless.
I suppose I did exaggerate the damage a bit compared to the averages, though it's certainly possible to roll good enough to reach those values.
With my actual play experience of a Paladin Champion compared to a Shield Fighter in the same party, though, failing Reflex Saves instead of even just succeeding them was getting me killed a lot faster compared to the Fighter with Evasion, forcing me to take Canny Acumen for Reflex Saves (to not die so fast) instead of Perception (to go first and get in position for my allies), which was really my original point.
Champion and Fighter at level 16 vs Ancient Silver Dragon at level 19.
Champion have a reflex of +25 and Fighter a +27 with evasion.
Champion AC is 40 and Fighter is 38.
Both have cold resistance 15.
Dragon uses the breath weapon (70 dmg, DC42):
Champion takes an average of 61.5 damage and the Fighter takes an average of 48 dmg with evasion.
Dragon uses Draconic Frenzy (+35 to hit: 31.5 dmg, +33 to hit: 31 dmg, +29 to hit: 31 dmg):
Champion takes an average of 80.6 damage and the fighter takes an average of 99.9 damage.
That +2 AC goes a long way :)
Same than Onkonk: in my opinion, you got a bad experience. Fighter and Champion have similar saves (even if Reflex is quite important and Will is a bit less interesting) but the Champion has higher AC and the ability to heal themselves.
Also, you speak of a shield Fighter, which is obviously the tankiest Fighter. But it's just one build among many.
