Thug Rogue Build Advice


Advice


If anyone has any neat ideas, I'd love to hear them.

I'm playing in a Reign of Winter game and am currently level 4. The build I have planned I think will work, but it also loses a bit of focus near the tail and I wonder how long I should actually be sticking with Rogue. I do need to maintain my role as Trap disabler and I also am currently responsible for all the Face skills.

Roguey:
CN Drow Rogue (Thug)
Str 13 Dex 16 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 16

1 Improved Unarmed Strike
1b Weapon Finesse
2 Rogue Talent:Weapon Training (Unarmed Strike)
3 Enforcer
4 Rogue Talent: Ninja Trick: Style Master: Boar Style
5 Dazzling Display
6 Rogue Talent: Bleeding Attack
7 Boar Ferocity
8 Rogue Talent>Combat Trick: Shatter Defenses
9 Drow Nobility
10 Rogue Talent: Opportunist
11 Improved DN
12 Rogue Talent: Stalker Talent: Cunning Feint
13 Greater DN

Traits
Trap Finder (campaign)
Bloody Minded(combat): You are always ready for bloodshed. You gain a +1 trait bonus on initiative and Intimidate checks.
Quain Martial Artist: +1 Dmg on Unarmed Strikes
Drawback: Betrayed

Racial adjustments: Daylight adaptation instead of Spell Resistance, Voice in the Darkness instead of Weapon Familiarity

So, Will saves are a problem.
Since I noticed that Boar style wants to hit twice, I thought it might be good to go into 2WF, so Right now I'm pondering a few dips into Snakebite Striker Brawler, but its a two level dip to get Brawlers Flurry. Monk gets Flurry of Blows at 1, but I'm Chaotic. Fighter dip to get a bonus feat for 2WF could also work, I suppose, but the benefit of brawler is the increased damage dice, not super necessary what with all the Sneak attack damage.

I initially wanted to stay pure rogue, but no reason to not explore the options. I also can't give up the Drow Noble feats, despite how far I've pushed them back.

Dark Archive

2 levels of cavalier, what ever type you think fits.

the important thing is to take order of the cockatrice, and use its 2nd level ability

Braggart (Ex): At 2nd level, the cavalier can spend a standard action to extol his own accomplishments and battle prowess. He receives Dazzling Display as a bonus feat. He does not need a weapon in hand to use this ability. The cavalier receives a +2 morale bonus on melee attack rolls made against demoralized targets.

now your thug can frighten every enemy in 30ft with intimidate instead of just 1 target


I'd stick with the 4 levels of Thug, and then add on 4/4 BAB class levels (brawler, slayer, or even 2 levels of Cav like Name Violation said). Between levels 4 and 12, get something that can boost your Str up to 15. At level 12 you'll have +11BAB, pick up Dreadful Carnage. Now you're a non-stop fear machine. Every time you drop someone to 0 HP or lower, you Frighten as a free action.


Order of the Cockatrice looks interesting. I hadn't considered that before.

Only concern I have about Dreadful carnage is getting that final blow. We've got a Winter Witch, Arctic Druid with wildshape focus, Shield Champion Brawler, and a Musketmaster Gunslinger. Good idea though.


look for things that increase the duration of your demoralization.

- you need at least 4 rounds of shaken to get it to turn into one round of frightened.
- if you effect every1 in a 30 ft range. you might need to re-demoralize some and every time you try again in the same 1 hour get +5 to the dc to succeed.


Ask DM if they're forcing alignment requirements. Retrain a level of Unchained Monk in there.

Sovereign Court RPG Superstar 2009 Top 32

Two great feats for a thug rogue are Bloody Mess (intimidate check whenever somebody attacks you), and Scrutinize Spell (intimidate check whenever somebody casts a spell). In both cases, that can make them frightened.


zza ni wrote:
look for things that increase the duration of your demoralization.

Adding to this, Equipment Trick: Cloak has an ability that has great synergy with the Thug.

"Dazzling Trail (Dazzling Display): When you successfully use Intimidate to demoralize an opponent while wearing a cloak, you can increase the duration of the demoralize effect by 1d4 rounds."

So 1 round base, 1 additional round from the Frightening ability, and +1d4 from the trick.


Kasoh wrote:

Order of the Cockatrice looks interesting. I hadn't considered that before.

Only concern I have about Dreadful carnage is getting that final blow. We've got a Winter Witch, Arctic Druid with wildshape focus, Shield Champion Brawler, and a Musketmaster Gunslinger. Good idea though.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting final blows. If you go 2 levels of Cav for Order of the Cockatrice, and then keep to your current plan of getting Shatter Defenses, but levels 7+ you start going Snakebite Striker Brawler, your SnA will be pretty decent by level 12. Maybe even boost UMD and get a Wand of Sense Vitals.

With Shatter Defenses, and an SnA of 4d6 + Xd6 Sense Vitals already at level 7, you'll be SnAing like a pro, and SnAing on every hit from your Full Attack (after they're shattered). Get some Boots of Speed for on-demand Haste for an extra attack and a +1 to hit. Get Monk's Robe to increase your Unarmed Strike damage.

I would also capitalize on the fact that you're using Enforcer to cause your Intimidates, and pick up Sap Adept/Master to max out your SnA damage.

lvl1-4: Rogue4 (Thug)
lvl5- Cavalier1 - Order of Cockatrice, feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker (SnA 3d6)
lvl6: C2 (Dazzling Display - free)
lvl7: Brawler1 (Snakebite Striker) feat: Shatter Defenses, SnA 4d6
lvl8: B2 Brawler's Flurry (TWF), bonus combat feat: Sap Adept (SnA becomes 4d6+4 nonlethal)
lvl9: B3 feat: Sap Master (use your Unarmed Strikes to deal Non-lethal to Shattered targets for 8d6+8 SnA damage)
lvl10: B4
lvl11: B5 Pummeling Style
lvl12: B6 SnA 5d6 (or 10d6+10 non-lethal)
lvl13: B7 Dreadful Carnage
lvl14: B8 (Imp TWF) bonus combat feat: Pummeling Charge (120ft charge w/haste + 7 attacks)

If opponent has high DR or if they're far from you, Pummeling Style/Charge can save the day. For all others, Boar Style will rip them to shreds. If you're not interested in Pummeling Charge, I would still go Brawler8 simply for the Imp TWF, and I would still pick up Pummeling Style for high DR targets. With Monk's Robe, your Unarmed will be 2d6 per hit, and your SnA will be 5d6 (10d6+10 nonlethal) (even more with Sense Vitals active), and that kind of damage can add up QUICK when you're making 7 attacks around.

Use non-lethal damage as often as possible to quickly Stagger them; they will be considered Staggered once you reach their current HP. Once you reach their total max HP as non-lethal damage, all further non-lethal becomes lethal damage. Being that you have a really high charisma, you might ask your DM if you can retrain one of your Rogue Talents to Underhanded, and if he does let you retrain this, I'd consider maxing out Stealth for some Surprise Round unrolled SnA damage 3 times per day. I would ask your DM to trade out Rogue Talent:Weapon Training (Unarmed Strike) at level 2 and let you retrain that once you've got levels in Snakebite Striker.

One of the best perks of being proficient in dealing nonlethal damage is that you can keep people alive for interrogation.

Dark Archive

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Kasoh wrote:

Order of the Cockatrice looks interesting. I hadn't considered that before.

Only concern I have about Dreadful carnage is getting that final blow. We've got a Winter Witch, Arctic Druid with wildshape focus, Shield Champion Brawler, and a Musketmaster Gunslinger. Good idea though.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting final blows. If you go 2 levels of Cav for Order of the Cockatrice, and then keep to your current plan of getting Shatter Defenses, but levels 7+ you start going Snakebite Striker Brawler, your SnA will be pretty decent by level 12. Maybe even boost UMD and get a Wand of Sense Vitals.

With Shatter Defenses, and an SnA of 4d6 + Xd6 Sense Vitals already at level 7, you'll be SnAing like a pro, and SnAing on every hit from your Full Attack (after they're shattered). Get some Boots of Speed for on-demand Haste for an extra attack and a +1 to hit. Get Monk's Robe to increase your Unarmed Strike damage.

I would also capitalize on the fact that you're using Enforcer to cause your Intimidates, and pick up Sap Adept/Master to max out your SnA damage.

lvl1-4: Rogue4 (Thug)
lvl5- Cavalier1 - Order of Cockatrice, feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker (SnA 3d6)
lvl6: C2 (Dazzling Display - free)
lvl7: Brawler1 (Snakebite Striker) feat: Shatter Defenses, SnA 4d6
lvl8: B2 Brawler's Flurry (TWF), bonus combat feat: Sap Adept (SnA becomes 4d6+4 nonlethal)
lvl9: B3 feat: Sap Master (use your Unarmed Strikes to deal Non-lethal to Shattered targets for 8d6+8 SnA damage)
lvl10: B4
lvl11: B5 Pummeling Style
lvl12: B6 SnA 5d6 (or 10d6+10 non-lethal), Slayer Talent (Combat Trick: Dreadful Carnage)
lvl13: B7
lvl14: B8 (Imp TWF) bonus combat feat: Pummeling Charge (120ft charge w/haste + 7 attacks)

If opponent has...

personally i'd go rogue 1/cav 2 then back to rogue, just to get Dazzling display going at level 3

also OP mentioned trap finder trait, but thats a campaign trait for a different campaign


Name Violation wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Kasoh wrote:

Order of the Cockatrice looks interesting. I hadn't considered that before.

Only concern I have about Dreadful carnage is getting that final blow. We've got a Winter Witch, Arctic Druid with wildshape focus, Shield Champion Brawler, and a Musketmaster Gunslinger. Good idea though.

I wouldn't worry too much about getting final blows. If you go 2 levels of Cav for Order of the Cockatrice, and then keep to your current plan of getting Shatter Defenses, but levels 7+ you start going Snakebite Striker Brawler, your SnA will be pretty decent by level 12. Maybe even boost UMD and get a Wand of Sense Vitals.

With Shatter Defenses, and an SnA of 4d6 + Xd6 Sense Vitals already at level 7, you'll be SnAing like a pro, and SnAing on every hit from your Full Attack (after they're shattered). Get some Boots of Speed for on-demand Haste for an extra attack and a +1 to hit. Get Monk's Robe to increase your Unarmed Strike damage.

I would also capitalize on the fact that you're using Enforcer to cause your Intimidates, and pick up Sap Adept/Master to max out your SnA damage.

lvl1-4: Rogue4 (Thug)
lvl5- Cavalier1 - Order of Cockatrice, feat: Accomplished Sneak Attacker (SnA 3d6)
lvl6: C2 (Dazzling Display - free)
lvl7: Brawler1 (Snakebite Striker) feat: Shatter Defenses, SnA 4d6
lvl8: B2 Brawler's Flurry (TWF), bonus combat feat: Sap Adept (SnA becomes 4d6+4 nonlethal)
lvl9: B3 feat: Sap Master (use your Unarmed Strikes to deal Non-lethal to Shattered targets for 8d6+8 SnA damage)
lvl10: B4
lvl11: B5 Pummeling Style
lvl12: B6 SnA 5d6 (or 10d6+10 non-lethal), Slayer Talent (Combat Trick: Dreadful Carnage)
lvl13: B7
lvl14: B8 (Imp TWF) bonus combat feat: Pummeling Charge (120ft charge w/haste + 7

...

He's already level 4 :P


It’s entirely within reason that you could pick up Boots of Speed and a Wand of Sense Vitals by level 7, and this is right when Shatter Defenses comes online. So first hit: Intimidate, second hit: Shatter Defenses, third hit+ until they're dead: SnA all day erry day. Get Monk's Robes asap, and a Belt of Incredible Dexterity and an Agile +1 AoMF as well, and upgrade both of these whenever you have spare coin. I would also consider retraining your level one feat Improved Unarmed Strike into Piranha Strike once you take your first level in Brawler.

Level 7: 4 attacks per round that deal 6d6 SnA (4d6 + 2d6 SV). Unarmed Strike: 1d6

Level 8: 5 attacks per round that deal 6d6 SnA (4d6 + 2d6 SV). Unarmed Strike: 1d6

Level 9: 5 attacks per round that deal 7d6 SnA (4d6 + 3d6 SV), or 14d6+14 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d6

Level 10: 5 attacks per round that deal 7d6 SnA (4d6 + 3d6 SV), or 14d6+14 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d8

Level 11: 5 attacks per round that deal 7d6 SnA (4d6 + 3d6 SV), or 14d6+14 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d8

Level 12: 6 attacks per round that deal 9d6 SnA (5d6 + 4d6 SV), or 18d6+18 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d8

Level 12: 6 attacks per round that deal 9d6 SnA (5d6 + 4d6 SV), or 18d6+18 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d8

Level 13: 6 attacks per round that deal 9d6 SnA (5d6 + 4d6 SV), or 18d6+18 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d10

Level 14: 7 attacks per round that deal 9d6 SnA (5d6 + 4d6 SV), or 18d6+18 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d10

Level 15: 7 attacks per round that deal 10d6 SnA (5d6 + 5d6 SV), or 20d6+20 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d10

Level 16: 7 attacks per round that deal 11d6 SnA (6d6 + 5d6 SV), or 22d6+22 nonlethal. Unarmed Strike: 1d10

=================================================

The damage is certainly there, so the main thing to worry about now would be boosting your accuracy. With the 4 levels in Rogue, you only lose -1 BAB, but Cav and Brawler are full BAB, and Cav Order of the Cockatrice gives you an additional +2 to attack vs. Demoralized targets. Shatter Defenses also denies Dex to AC, so that's a huge help for your landing your iterative attacks. You have a couple of melee in your party as well, so Always Always Always be flanking for that additional +2 to hit, and having a 2nd way of forcing SnA dmg.

You might also consider getting a Wand of Reduce Person to increase your AC and Dex bonus.

Dark Archive

also, for cavalier, you can look at archetypes that give up mount for something more worth while like musketeer or disciple of the pike, or change mount to a different thing for a fragile flanking buddy, like huntmaster or vermin tamer.


Sap Master gets really impressive, wow.

Yeah, I got to take the trapfinding trait because I gave it away to be a Thug, but party still needed to be able to disable magical traps.

4 levels of daring Champion Cav looked good for the deeds and Precise Strike would probably combo with Boar Ferocity, but it does double dip on a lot of features I already have (Weapon Finesse, etc.)

With 5 skill points a level, I could manage to keep up Disable, Perception, Intimidate, Diplomacy and Bluff but my other skills would atrophy pretty quickly. I could probably stand losing accomplished sneak for Cunning to make up for some losses.

Musketeer Cavalier would be useful in Reign of Winter, as I've come to understand, even with a 2 level dip.

Snakebite Striker does look better for deeper investment but at this point I wonder if I'm just stepping on the toes of the other brawler. Well, nothing to be helped for that.


If you’re worried about stepping on your Brawler buddy’s toes, you could do something similar with a vanilla Slayer who picks TWF as his Ranger Combat Styles. You’d still get TWF at Slayer 2, Imp TWF at Slayer 6, and GTWF at Slayer10, your SnA will progress faster but you wouldn't get the increased unarmed strike damage.

Now that I think about it, Slayer might be better.

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