Scaled Fist + Dazzling Display Oversight?


Rules Questions


I can't quite tell if this is an oversight or something, but if I'm reading everything right there's a slight flaw in Scaled Fist allowing for Dazzling Display and related feats. Namely, that Dazzling Display requires Weapon Focus to function whereas the Monk's Bonus Feats feature allows you to take it without having Weapon Focus. I get the whole "dragons scary" angle that the archetype is trying to go with by using Dazzling Display to simulate the dragon's fear aura, but how does it work if the character doesn't have a Weapon Focus to activate the feat?


Silversepiroth wrote:
how does it work if the character doesn't have a Weapon Focus to activate the feat?

Simple, it doesn't. You cannot use Dazzling Display without having Weapon Focus.

So yes, if you want to use Dazzling Display, being able to ignore the prereqs doesn't do you any good. Being added to the Monk Bonus Feat list can still be beneficial, though, because it's, well, a bonus feat. If you don't want any of the other options from the list, that can be nice.

Note that from the vanilla Monk Bonus Feat list, Snatch Arrows also doesn't do anything if you don't have Deflect Arrows.


There are several other ways to get Dazzling Display that do not require a weapon in hand... the Cavalier's Order of the Cockatrice [Braggart] and Ringleader Bard [Sinister Mien] both immediately come to mind.

You are what is scary, not your weapon... you can perform a bewildering show of prowess as a full-round action. Make an Intimidate check to demoralize all foes within 30 feet who can see your display.


Derklord wrote:
Note that from the vanilla Monk Bonus Feat list, Snatch Arrows also doesn't do anything if you don't have Deflect Arrows.

Except it is in the default Monk bonus feat list, between Combat Reflexes and Dodge, which adds to the confusion of not having the required feat that is necessary for it to function in the bonus feat list.

It's not a huge deal, I was mostly wondering if D20 and the Archives were missing something or if this was a genuine oversight when it was printed.


Not an oversight just a questionable design choice… they could have worded the bonus feats ability to “ignore normal prerequisites” and then noted specific requirements on bonus feats that simply don’t function without another feat… for example: Dazzling Display (requires Weapon Focus)… then it would function just like various other selectable class features…

Monk isn’t the only one with this problem with its bonus feats either… Ranger has a few Combat Style bonus feats that it can’t use without their prerequisites and yet it can take them without prerequisites. Improved and Greater Two-weapon Fighting come immediately to mind.

The Exchange

I could have sworn there was either a FAQ or a printed rule that pertained to these situations. Maybe about bonus feats or maybe about retraining situations where you could find yourself (legally) lacking a prerequisite feat. I remember it as not being super-explicit though. Something along the lines of "If you physically can't do it it doesn't work." Which still led to arguments.

Anybody else remember this?


Silversepiroth wrote:
which adds to the confusion of not having the required feat that is necessary for it to function in the bonus feat list.

Is it really confusion, or just wishful thinking? "A monk need not have any of the prerequisites normally required for these feats to select them." It doesn't say "requirements" or something, it uses a specific game term. Prerequisites. The line doesn't let you ignore the "You must have at least one hand free (holding nothing) to use this feat." of Deflect Arrows or the "These bonus attacks must be made against a dazed, flat-footed, paralyzed, staggered, stunned, or unconscious foe." of Medusa's Wrath, what makes you think it lets you ignore the "While wielding the weapon in which you have Weapon Focus" of Dazzling Display?

Chell Raighn wrote:
Improved and Greater Two-weapon Fighting come immediately to mind.

Improved TWF works perfectly fine on its own. Greater TWF without the Improved version would end up it not being a third bonus attack, but otherwise works, too.

Liberty's Edge

Belafon wrote:

I could have sworn there was either a FAQ or a printed rule that pertained to these situations. Maybe about bonus feats or maybe about retraining situations where you could find yourself (legally) lacking a prerequisite feat. I remember it as not being super-explicit though. Something along the lines of "If you physically can't do it it doesn't work." Which still led to arguments.

Anybody else remember this?

At a guess, it was the thread about Tail terror and Racial Heritage.

With Racial Heritage: Kobold you can take Tail Terror, but you still lack the tail to make the tail attack.
A Dev intervened in the thread saying that you need a way to get a tail or the feat will do nothing, but I think it never did become a FAQ.


i think he's talking about the one saying that if a feat ask for things like str 13+ and you no longer have that you can't use the feat etc (used a str belt to gain access to a feat, then lost the belt et). i seem to recall it somewhere but can't find it atm.


Probably just a case of the designer forgetting exactly how the feat is worded. The monk ability ignores the prerequisite, but the rest of the text is still relevant.

It's not like weapon focus is an unusual feat for a level 6+ monk to have.


zza ni wrote:
i think he's talking about the one saying that if a feat ask for things like str 13+ and you no longer have that you can't use the feat etc (used a str belt to gain access to a feat, then lost the belt et). i seem to recall it somewhere but can't find it atm.

That's basic feat rules: "A character can’t use a feat if he loses a prerequisite, but he does not lose the feat itself. If, at a later time, he regains the lost prerequisite, he immediately regains full use of the feat that prerequisite enables." CRB pg. 112

That's irrelevant to the topic, though, because we get to ignore the prereqs, and the limitation is in the benefits section.


Well, there is a very situational benefit: You can pick up Weapon Focus afterwards, let's say at level 7. This allows you to spend your general feats from level 1, 3 and 5 on something else - whatever those more important feats might be. At the expense of using Dazzling Display one level after acquiring it.

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