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I think Forensic Method/Medic Dedication + Melee is a notable path.Are you meaning one or the other of Forensic Method or Medic archetype? Because those seem a bit redundant to take both. Not completely, but a bit.They are complementary.
To begin with, medic dedication strengthens the forensic study path, giving additional healings depends the DC.
Second, it makes you elegible to get "doctor's visitation", which allows the character to stride + battle medicine with a single action.
Third, it's one of those dedication which also has skill feats, meaning that you'd be able to complete it by lvl 4 rather than lvl 6.
Finally, and probably the most powerful part of it, it allows the medic to use once per day ( or per hour, starting by lvl 7 ) battle medicine on an immune target, meaning that you could use it twice on the same target.
It's really a great and low cost combination.
It just feels like one of those times where 1 + 1 does not equal 2. Maybe 1.3 or so.
For example, your list of benefits are great for the Medic archetype. But what does Forensic Medicine actually add to that? The Forensic Acumen skill feat and getting the 1/hour Battle medicine at level 1 instead of waiting until level 7.
I'm just thinking that it might be better to pick one of the other Methodologies if you want the full power of Medic archetype. Or the other way around too - it may be better to skip the Medic archetype if the Forensic Medicine methodology is sufficient for your needs.
The math looks fine at first glance, and it isn't the math that I am talking about. So I will just assume your 20% improvement is accurate for the discussion.
What I am trying to point out is that this 20% increase from having both Medic archetype and Forensic Medicine is cool and all, but it comes at the cost of being able to get things like 4-5 free alchemical tools every day, or a free action seek, sense motive, or recall knowledge once per battle, or taking a different archetype at low levels. Doubling down on the Battle Medicine and paying both an archetype slot and the subclass selection for it may be more cost than it is worth.
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Forensic also gives you Scalpel's Point which ain't bad.
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One of the investigators I played was with the alchemical discoveries - they aren't that many recipes, and it really really irritates that they aren't bombs. DAS and bombs go together really well. Meanwhile, the tools and elixirs require a LOT of investment in buying all of the formulas to really get to that perfect tool for the job stage.
It's nice, but not really SUPER nice.
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One of the investigators I played was with the alchemical discoveries - they aren't that many recipes, and it really really irritates that they aren't bombs. DAS and bombs go together really well. Meanwhile, the tools and elixirs require a LOT of investment in buying all of the formulas to really get to that perfect tool for the job stage.
It's nice, but not really SUPER nice.
Forensic begs for Medic dedication.
Alchemical sciences begs for Alchemist MC dedication.
For those interested, I just updated my alchemy tables with the options from the latest books.
• Alchemist Multiclass Archetype
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The Methodologies don’t make any major difference to your build. Alchemical Sciences is the most useful. Choose the one you like.
Got to disagree here. Your methodology choice informs the rest of your build, whether you are becoming a solid party medic, the recall knowledge guy, the face, or a buff/utility provider. You can just grab a methodology and ignore it for the rest of your build, but I don't think that is the best way to go.
Athletic Investigator
Having Strength means you miss out on good ranged attacks but you have a reasonable Athletics skill to do grabs and trips as a Plan B.
Worth remembering is that your Devise works for ranged attacks. I recommend carrying a ranged weapon (guns are great for Investigators) even if you aren't good at using it without Devise.
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As for Forensic Medicine + Medic, I think it is a good combination. Not for the bonus to the healing amount, but for the more available burst healing and action economy help from Doctor's Visitation. You get to do the thing you want to do more often, better, and for fewer actions. Plus, you are out at 4 so it isn't a huge cost.
Without Medic, you can't move and double Battle Medicine someone for huge healing with two actions (starting at 4). Without Forensic Medicine, you can only heal a party member twice a day (pre 7), and only one of them twice.
With only one of them you are a secondary healer. With both you can be a primary healer.
The Methodologies don’t make any major difference to your build. Alchemical Sciences is the most useful. Choose the one you like.Got to disagree here. Your methodology choice informs the rest of your build, whether you are becoming a solid party medic, the recall knowledge guy, the face, or a buff/utility provider. You can just grab a methodology and ignore it for the rest of your build, but I don't think that is the best way to go.
Fine, this is a preference on my part. I don't see that the value of concentrating on ALchemy or Medicine really makes a difference compared to having a bit of both. Yes there are differences but both work usefully even at a minor level. You can concentrate and that is effective too, but you don't need to concentrate on one. Thats what I'm saying. I'm just trying to cover the basics not flesh the builds out totally. My goal was to keep it under a page, with which I've failed, but still trying to keep it under two pages.
Worth remembering is that your Devise works for ranged attacks. I recommend carrying a ranged weapon (guns are great for Investigators) even if you aren't good at using it without Devise.Athletic Investigator
Having Strength means you miss out on good ranged attacks but you have a reasonable Athletics skill to do grabs and trips as a Plan B.
Check out my Old General build - it will probably never bother with significant Strength or Dexterity. But yes technically the other build without Dexterity should carry a Bow as well to use with his Stratagem die.
Does DaS work while in Wildshape? And, if so, adding just the extra Precision damage or also the extra weapon specialization damage?
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Does DaS work while in Wildshape? And, if so, adding just the extra Precision damage or also the extra weapon specialization damage?
If you take on a battle form with a polymorph spell, the special statistics can be adjusted only by circumstance bonuses, status bonuses, and penalties.
You can use the "roll and see what you get" part of Devise a Stratagem, but you can't substitute in your intelligence for another ability. Because it's not one of the allowed bonus types.
The extra damage from strategic strike also isn't on the list of bonus types you can get.
99% of the time when you think you've found some way to get a bonus to wildshape, it doesn't work. The point of those spells is to put your numbers at an already competitive spot.
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The extra damage from strategic strike also isn't on the list of bonus types you can get.
Worth noting though that this specific point here has been subject to highly contentious back and forth debate.
I think there's one thing you have missed with Strength-based Investigator: You can use a Greatsword just fine.
If you combine a Greatsword and an Agile Unarmed attack (like the Orc's Tusks) you can switch between DaS + Agile and standard melee attacks.
DaS + Stride + Strike does less damage than Stride + Strike + Strike with a Greatsword. So for all these situations where you don't have a free action DaS nor an alternate action you can just Strike and it works fine (sure, you're not at your strongest, but you're still a martial with a Greatsword).
Also, if your DaS roll is low, you can switch target and use your Greatsword for maximum damage.
It is in my opinion the basic setup for a Strength-based Investigator. Using only Agile weapons cripples your efficiency as you will only deal optimal damage with DaS and deal subpar damage outside of it.
So is adjusting the same as additional in this case? Seems not as adding damage doesn't adjust the Wildshape numbers?
I get Strength damage would adjust but Sneak, DaS, etc only add damage.
It is unfortunate that Animal Form falls off as you level. I am trying to find a way to allow it to be viable all through career.
I do not like that you have to go Huge just to stay relevant for a bit (9th).
Size shouldn't be a forcible tactic. Lots of cramped spaces in these modules.
I am finding WS a bit problematic because of it.
Wouldn't you use DaS as your normal attack bonus and then sub it for WS bonus for the bonus +2?
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As a side note, Interrogation Methodology is in my opinion better than people think, as it has a direct combat use.
What you need is to open a door by making a snarky comment:
Investigator opens the door: "I heard that orcs were weaklings barely able to wield their axes!
Orc inside the room - I will show you how I wield my axe!
Investigator - Then tell me of one of your feats of strength, if you ever made one...
Rolls against Orc Will DC and succeeds.
Orc - Well, there's this time [... speaks for a minute]
Investigator - Too bad your mind is not as strong as your arm, I have now enough information to end you quickly!"
Rolls Diplomacy or Deception for Initiative and can DaS for a free action.
Of course, some GMs may annoy you but it's in my opinion a perfectly acceptable use of Pointed Question.
@SuperBidi well played!
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So is adjusting the same as additional in this case? Seems not as adding damage doesn't adjust the Wildshape numbers?
I get Strength damage would adjust but Sneak, DaS, etc only add damage.
It is unfortunate that Animal Form falls off as you level. I am trying to find a way to allow it to be viable all through career.
I do not like that you have to go Huge just to stay relevant for a bit (9th).
Size shouldn't be a forcible tactic. Lots of cramped spaces in these modules.
I am finding WS a bit problematic because of it.
Wouldn't you use DaS as your normal attack bonus and then sub it for WS bonus for the bonus +2?
Adjusting is the bigger term, it includes both bonuses that you add and penalties that you subtract.
But you have a point, with DaS and Wild Shape you would have a high enough attack modifier to earn the +2 on some levels, although you'd need to use agile or finesse attacks. The Cat (1d10 agile) is probably the best option.
At level 4 when you first take Wild Shape you'd have a +11 to hit (assuming Int 18 and Handwraps +1), so that would go to +13 instead of +9.
At level 5 you'd have a +14 (because Expert) which doesn't beat Animal Form's +14 so you stay there.
At level 6 you have +15 so you get bumped to +17.
At level 7 you'd have +16 and so does Animal Form so your to-hit is lower than last level.
At level 8 you'd have +17 so +19.
At level 9 you'd have +18 and that ties with Animal Form so again your to-hit drops.
Then after that, Animal Form is stuck at level 5 and you need to wait until level 16 before you can take Ferocious Shape to become a dinosaur, but then you'll get it as a level 7 spell and that's not the best thing a level 16 can want.
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So in conclusion: this works nicely at low levels, but it kinda fades from level 7 onward.
Also, you kinda lose out on losing a lot of your other abilities like talking to the other characters about your Recall Knowledge results, or doing the occasional ranged strategic strike with a bomb when you know you won't hit (but splash for weakness) or critically hit (and cause a relevant condition).
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I'm strongly considering alchemist multiclass for my own investigator once he's done with Medic because the predictive element works nicely with limited bombs, and you make up for not having the highest level bombs with Strategic Strike.
Agree all the way around this mulberry tree.
I still like it for utility but yes it fades in combat.
It is most unfortunate.
So Devise a Stratagem clearly works in the sense that you can use the roll you make in DaS while in a Battle Form. So Druids and spell casters using an Investigator multiclass for this is an effective tactic.
Substituting in your Intelligence modifier instead of Strength or Dexterity modifier is vague. (the option is only present if Investigator is your primary class) If you feel this changes your unarmed attack modifier then you substitute that number in place of the battle forms attack number then yes. Some GMs may argue a bit about the order. But yes that seems to work.
But as Ascalaphus notes both the extra damage from Strategic Strike and the Intelligence substitution require and agile or finesse attack, so the actual battle forms you can use this with are limited. Few of the Druid options are finesse and they are much weaker.
Then there is the question of whether this Extra Damage even works in a Battle Form which is a rules issue Paizo have refused to clarify. I think it does add.
My speculative plan for SoT is Grippli Investigator (Alchemical Sciences) [Alchemist and Druid dedications].
I thought WS would help offset Grippli melee deficiencies. Paired with DaS allows for a viable melee option.
I agree that Extra damage does indeed apply. If so, it only keeps the Animal Form Focus Spell viable longer.
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@SuperBidi well played!
The Interrogation Methodology is often undervalued. The main issue of the Investigator is to grab a Lead on an enemy before the fight. You need 3 things to get a Lead ahead of the fight:
1. Find tracks about an enemy.2. Be able to recognize the enemy as the one you have a Lead on.
3. Face the enemy soon (as you can only have 2 leads).
Finding tracks about dungeon denizens is trivial. The real issues are point 2 and 3: How to recognize a creature as the owner of the tracks? How to know that the owner of the tracks is in the next room?
For normal Investigators, it's close to impossible. You only have leads about the boss (recognizable + multiple tracks) and some big solo monsters (recognizable + unique tracks) and they rarely are in the next room (the boss is even in general in the last room).
With the Interrogation Methodology, you add a lot of ways to get a lead:
- Taking a prisoner. The best one. In the last dungeon of the Slithering, we took a prisoner. We got information about each and every fight from this moment on. With an Interrogation Investigator it means one or 2 leads per fight.
- Finding a friendly NPC. It's quite common in dungeons to have an NPC (prisoner, denizen without a direct link to the main enemies, etc...) who shares information about a fight or 2.
- Asking the neighbourhood. In general, neighbourghs have information about the first fight: the hooded figures, the thugs, the guards. Point 2 may still be an issue, but sometimes one guard may have a recognizable sign. I'd allow this way to get a lead to normal Investigators but I can see a GM limiting it to Interrogators.
- Speaking with the enemy before the fight. Very GM-dependent. But with Pointed Question you can turn any introduction into a 1-minute conversation.
All these methods will give you a solid lead as you both know about an enemy, have a clear description of them and know when you'll face them. You can even start some fights with 2 leads, which is golden and nearly impossible for a normal Investigator. I personally consider the Interrogation Methodology to be the best one, but it asks for a lot of work interrogating NPCs, taking prisonners and using some forms of scouting spells/abilities (speak with animals for example). Depending on the party/GM, it can be easy to achieve or causing issues.
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Then there is the question of whether this Extra Damage even works in a Battle Form which is a rules issue Paizo have refused to clarify. I think it does add.
I think it straightforwardly doesn't.
Damage is one of the special statistics set by the battle form. You can only add certain types of bonuses to it, and strategic strike doesn't have the right types.
Battle forms are intended to be complete as-is. They give you a to-hit and damage that's appropriate for the level of the spell used, comparable with the all-day bonuses other characters can add through items and class abilities. The things that do stack with battle forms are short/very short time effects like Heroism, Inspire Courage, Take Cover etc. that are also not part of the all-day stats of other characters.
The intent was very much to avoid 1E shenanigans where battle forms could get to numbers far higher than normal for the level. That's why there's so few things that you can stack on them.
Then there is the question of whether this Extra Damage even works in a Battle Form which is a rules issue Paizo have refused to clarify. I think it does add.
I think it straightforwardly doesn't.
Damage is one of the special statistics set by the battle form. You can only add certain types of bonuses to it, and strategic strike doesn't have the right types.
Battle forms are intended to be complete as-is. They give you a to-hit and damage that's appropriate for the level of the spell used, comparable with the all-day bonuses other characters can add through items and class abilities. The things that do stack with battle forms are short/very short time effects like Heroism, Inspire Courage, Take Cover etc. that are also not part of the all-day stats of other characters.
The intent was very much to avoid 1E shenanigans where battle forms could get to numbers far higher than normal for the level. That's why there's so few things that you can stack on them.
It doesn't pass simple tests of logic. Every class can get extra runes on weapons, and take a multiclass (Bard/Rogue etc) to get a few extra points of damage. So are the battle forms are balanced without the extra damage that every other class can get? So my Ghost Touch and Crushing rune work but not my Flaming Rune? Doesn't make a whole lot of sense. But then again neither does Paizo's undefined damage equation.
They need to be avaiable.
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I'd give a build because I think there's a path you haven't explored:
Interrogator
Str 16 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 16
Basic equipment: Greatsword, Full Plate (once you get the feats)
Methodology: Interrogation
Feats: Armor Proficiency + Armor Proficiency or Sentinel to get your hands on a Full Plate. I like Marshal Dedication as it gives alternate actions and is quite thematic. But overall you can grab whatever you want with this build as the core of the build is not in its feats.
What I want to show with this build is how to build a Strength-based Investigator. The Strength-based Investigator is not dependent on Strategic Strike for damage as you deal similar damage with your Greatsword anyway. As such you can choose to dump Intelligence and focus on another stat. As an Interrogator you really need Charisma to use Pointed Question and grab good leads which will increase your combat efficiency way more than the occasional +1 to hit you'd get from an 18 in Intelligence.
On top of that, this build is way less clunky than most Intelligence-based Investigators as you can Strike whoever you want with maxed efficiency. Devise a Stratagem is no more the core of your build (and a ball and chain) but a feature you use when it's appropriate and ignore if it's not useful.
It is an interesting design. But I just look at it and think - why am I playing an Investigator then. I may as well play another class with more features I want to use then take Investigator as a multiclass for DaS. This build is just for Pointed Question.
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It is an interesting design. But I just look at it and think - why am I playing an Investigator then. I may as well play another class with more features I want to use then take Investigator as a multiclass for DaS. This build is just for Pointed Question.
2-part answer:
1. If all you care about the Investigator is DaS, then maybe you shouldn't play an Investigator at all and grab the Dedication instead.2. About this build: 10 extra skill increases, Legendary Perception, Interrogation Methodology (that I find very important to benefit from DaS), DaS from level 1 to 20, Suspect of Opportunity (it's a staple in my opinion), you can take another Dedication instead, low Int (you need 14 Int for Investigator Dedication, so you may not end up with a better build if you grab another class).
As a side note, in this build you can increase Intelligence. Going this route:
1. Str 16 Dex 10 Con 12 Int 12 Wis 12 Cha 16
5. Str 18 Dex 10 Con 14 Int 12 Wis 14 Cha 18
10. Str 19 Dex 10 Con 16 Int 14 Wis 16 Cha 18
15. Str 20 Dex 10 Con 18 Int 16 Wis 16 Cha 19
20. Str 20(22) Dex 12 Con 18 Int 18 Wis 18 Cha 20
It's a slow progression, but it shouldn't cripple you that much. You have -1 to Charisma and Wisdom modifiers at level 15-19 but you end up with 18 Intelligence as a consequence and an extremely balanced build ability-wise on a skill monkey, which seems like an ideal way to end the game.
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I have to agree with both of you...lol.
The Investigator chassis in and of itself is really solid. The main reason I decided on it instead of straight Alchemist.
The increased proficiencies along with skills and skill feats for days!
Slap whatever Dedication you want flavorwise and/or mechanically on it and you have a really solid character.
DaS is extremely flavorful and great for Consumables.
Being able to sub Int means I can spread Stats out a bit more than Alchemist.
The precision damage is great for keeping bombs at par.
The class really does have a lot going for it.
We will also have a Rogue in the party so really looking forward to seeing them both in play to compare side by side...lol.
I really enjoy these discussions.
Thank you.
(I still think it works but concede that it is Table variant, which we had in PF1e too).
EDIT
WS Pest Form would be quite useful for PaL too!
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The Old General, or The Director
Str 10 Dex 12 Con 10 Int 18 Wis 12 Cha 16
Basic equipment: Breastplate, Guisarme , Bow
Class Feats: Level 1: Known Weaknesses, Level 2: Marshal Dedication, Level 4: Detective's Readiness, Level 8: To Battle , Level 10: Suspect of Opportunity
Skills: Diplomacy, Intimidation, Deception …
This character only attacks when the Stratagem is right - but can use almost any weapon. Otherwise this character yells orders and intimidates people. This is one of very few builds that suits the Interrogation Methodology, as it is taking both Charisma and Intelligence. It requires Armor Proficiency. The build is a lot weaker defensively and should not be considered for the front rank. Because it is based on a d10 martial it can mostly get away with it.
One thing about the Armchair General: The main issue you'll meet with this kind of characters is that during a lot of rounds you'll have 2 to 3 actions available that you can't use to attack. Marshal Dedication gives you nice actions as do skills, but you'll often end up wasting actions on suboptimal things. Also, it doesn't reward much having a lead against an enemy.
There's in my opinion a better fit for this kind of characters: Summoner Dedication. When you roll low, you play your Eidolon. The Eidolon can use as many of your actions as needed and can be ignored when you roll high without negative consequences. It's also extremely light in terms of feats as you only need a level 2 and level 12 feat for the Eidolon to be at its best. It also allows you to easily play with DaS by choosing which attack you'll use your Stratagem on (if you roll enemy AC +5-9 for example, you can first attack with your Eidolon and then attack yourself). And unlike most Investigators, if you roll low on DaS you don't have to switch target so it also solves the focus fire issue of the Investigator.
One thing about the Armchair General: The main issue you'll meet with this kind of characters is that during a lot of rounds you'll have 2 to 3 actions available that you can't use to attack. Marshal Dedication gives you nice actions as do skills, but you'll often end up wasting actions on suboptimal things. Also, it doesn't reward much having a lead against an enemy.
There's in my opinion a better fit for this kind of characters: Summoner Dedication. When you roll low, you play your Eidolon. The Eidolon can use as many of your actions as needed and can be ignored when you roll high without negative consequences. It's also extremely light in terms of feats as you only need a level 2 and level 12 feat for the Eidolon to be at its best. It also allows you to easily play with DaS by choosing which attack you'll use your Stratagem on (if you roll enemy AC +5-9 for example, you can first attack with your Eidolon and then attack yourself). And unlike most Investigators, if you roll low on DaS you don't have to switch target so it also solves the focus fire issue of the Investigator.
But you are effectively rolling your attack every round. If it looks good then you take it, if not then it would have failed anyway so you haven't really lost anything.
Marshall is just one option, any sort of companion works pretty well. Because you can easily get a couple of good cantrips with just one feat there is very little reason not to take a rank as an intellligence based caster.
I just like this particular build because it is actually getting a good martial attack in, on almost zero investment in physical ability scores. Without any magic.
But yes you do need options for your two actions. Battle Medicine, extra Recall Knowledge checks, use Intimidation a fair bit. You do have to round the character out.