Swashbuckler and Math

[HumbleGamer]

Really quick one:

Assuming a DEX swashbuckler using a finesse weapon, as well as using the "perfect finisher" by lvl 14, how much difference there would be between:

1) Panace
2) Strike
3) Perfect Finisher

and

1) Panache
2) Perfect Finisher
3) *Another action without the attack trait

The weapon could be anything finesse, but I nailed down to 3 " concept"possibilities:

- Rapier ( 1d6 + deadly, - Agile )
- Wakizashi ( 1d4 + deadly + Agile )
- Short Sword ( 1d6 + Agile, - Deadly )

So, by how much the 2 strike pattern would be better than just using the finisher and how would the 3 weapons affect the overall damage.

Thank you.

[Lightning Raven]

The difference, as most things in combat in PF2e, comes down to situation.

The first routine is great for when the enemy has low AC, is significantly debuffed (or you're significantly buffed) or both. The second routine is more general in which you can use Intimidation, Feint, move, etc. in order to set up your finish or even try to get panache back again.

Don't waste your time trying to find out a "perfect routine", this will never happen and will leave you frustrated by thinking that this is like PF1e when you created builds that had a single routine that often broke the game (or made the player cry when the GM had an encounter in which their shtick couldn't work).

Focus on enhancing your character's action economy so that you can always do what you want while in unfavorable circumstances. Things like difficult terrain, speed penalties, debuffs, far away enemies or even unreachable due to flying or steep high ground and the many myriad of ways that can, and will, throw an wrench in your perfect routine.

In short, 1) is obviously better for damage, but requires lots of luck and good timing because normally it won't work because gambling your panache on a -4 attack is too risky. 2) Is the most versatile because you're using your highest bonus and you have a "free" action to do something else important for your turn.

[HumbleGamer]

Oh, I wasn't trying to find the "perfect routine" but rather to understand the difference in terms of dps.

Being part of a group, and given that dps is important when it comes to combat , I was just tweaking with the different finishers and actions combinations, tring to understand the average dps I had to provide not to slow down the party.

Tweaking to achieve the max damage wasn't something our group search for, but we happened to find themselves in trouble because a party member wasn't able to provide neither enough damage nor control/healings, and because so harmed the party in a very sensible way.

I agree the swashbuckler is peculiar when it comes to action management, as well as knowing that a swashbuckler won't be always able to panache + 2 strikes ( the assumption was considering an enemy within my reach ).

[gesalt]

Before considering weapon traits we have:

5d6+3 (2 damage runes, greater striking)
+5 panache, +5d6 finisher

Assuming a base 60% hit rate, perfect finisher on a 35% chance increases it to a (rounded) 58% chance. Straight perfect gives you an adjusted 84% hit rate.

.6[5(3.5)+8]+.58[5(3.5)+3+5(3.5)]=37.34
Vs
.84[5(3.5)+5(3.5)+3]=31.92

All of this assumes 100% panache generation obviously. The wakizashi might bring the two attack rotation damage up, but I'm not sure its worth it considering how often you'll be doing the one attack version anyway just due to combat circumstances or failed panache generation. Since the swash is inherently unreliable when it comes to making two attacks, I'd go with the rapier.

As always, if somebody sees I screwed up the math, please correct me.

[HumbleGamer]

Thanks gesalt.

Around 16% dmg increase then.
Quite notable I say.

Good call on the rapier.
I think I agree on that weapon( also because given the lvl 15 perk which gives a critical hit on a 19-20 rather than 20, doubling the possibilities, would probably "almost" always trigger on a 19 even with MAP -5 ), though it kinda bores me using a rapier on this character too.

Apart from the ones I listed, are there any good weapon I may consider?
I was thinking about a Wit swashbuckler.

[Guntermench]

Elven Branched Spear is basically a Rapier with Reach.

[Onkonk]

I used the damage calculation tool with 4 different parameters:

Swash 10 str, Combination Finisher and Perfect Finisher with all three weapons suggested. Attacks first once and then tries to do a finisher.

The fourth one uses only a rapier as agile is not benefitial to this character.

Result graph

So combination with shortsword seems to be the winner, ranging from 8-15% more damage than merely using a Perfect Finisher with a rapier.

[Onkonk]

Running the numbers vs a +3 enemy, the shortsword routine is still the best however the range goes from 0-7% instead.

Result graph

[Castilliano]

Also, a short sword (or other light weapon) works when an enemy Engulfs your PC or Swallows them Whole. :-) It may not be often, yet aren't those times when you really need your primary weapon to work?
And there are those enemies that are immune to Precision or you can't get Panache on well, and you'll want to swing multiple times anyway (if you can risk standing toe-to-toe).

[Secret Wizard]

This is the exact scenario where DW Swashbucklers really shine as they don't need to make a choice. They get limited access to Parrying feats but even then, I enjoy Swashbucklers more when they aren't fully focused on defence.