Talk to me about Nature vs Nurture with Chromatic Dragons, or if other instincts can win over their evil alignment


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

I feel like alignment is a harder and faster rule with dragons than with player characters, but I'd like some other Pathfinder (and Golarion) specific minds to think about how much wiggle room there might be on the alignment of chromatic dragons. Or expressed actions despite inherent alignment inclinations.

I'm thinking specifically of red dragons here. We know from Paizo sources that they're chaotic evil. They're the largest and most powerful chromatic dragons, and if one of them spares an innocent maiden from murder and consumption, it's because they like to enslave humans and elves as pretty, fragile additions to the hoard while they last. And then eat them later. So not exactly the gray area of gardening, academic greens.

Buuuuut. In social science and animal behavior, there's always a question of nature vs nurture. Is that something to consider for dragons raised in unusual circumstances? How much could their chaotic evil alignment be considered cultural or learned, and how much should we say at a certain age it's too big a part of them not to come out? Like when people try to raise wolves as if they were domestic dogs, it works until a certain age, but dragons are intelligent and can be reasoned with.

This is of course from a specific situation in my game:
Villains killed a mother Red and captured her youngsters. Heroes came along and killed the villains and freed the red youngsters. Also canonically, red dragons like taking out dragonslayers, so that was a point in favor of the heroes who put a stop to those dragonslayers and respected the reds. Because they were young and still at risk, the youngsters moved into a big city with the squishy mortal heroes and (said they would) accept compulsion spells for the safety of the city as willing conditions of being (served and) protected. At some point, they're going to be old enough to make the save. At some point it also might occur to a chaotic evil creature to go back on their word and not willingly accept compulsion spells. I'm just really wondering if it's completely implausible for either/both the modeled behavior of the heroes or the behavior modification of long term compulsion spells to have these particular young reds to grow up not chaotic evil and full of death and destruction.

I guess regardless of being stuck evil, there's always a chance even a chromatic dragon chooses to point their fire and brimstone elsewhere.

Silver Crusade

It’s easier for them to change alignment than say Outsiders or Undead but harder than mortals, the Paladin’s Smite actually does bonus damage to them so it’s not just a cultural/nurture thing.

The first P2 AP, Age of Ashes, deals with dragons varying in alignment.

For your spoiler that’s entirely a GM/story choice, not a rule/setting choice.


I think the hardest part about 'nurturing' a chromatic dragon is that dragons live exceptionally long times, so unless its another quasi immortal being or a whole organization, the dragon will eventually be on its own and a dragon's nature is to take.

So, the long life of dragons is a problem.

There's varying degrees on how strong a dragon's need to hoard gold is, but that compulsion is always there and it is probably the biggest hindrance to any attempts. I liken dragons desire for wealth akin to a human's desire for contact. You can live without, but it makes most miserable.

Their innate desire to hoard gold and treasure is also a hindrance.

The best attempts at this are probably going to be aligning the needs of the dragon with behavior that is beneficial to others around them, but a dragon really is physically and mentally superior to almost every other thing they meet. Convincing them to play ball is the tricky bit.

So, 'draconic arrogance' is something else to consider.

I wouldn't be surprised if a metallic dragon tried to do this, but all dragons are fairly solitary given how much space one needs.

Something else to consider is that even if a dragon is Chaotic Evil, it can still be friendly to people and generally well liked by the people around it. CE is a broad label and it doesn't always have to end with subjugation of the free people of the world and murder parties.


Yeah, the nature vs nurture issue is a heavily skewed topic where dragons are concerned (even more so with outsiders). I'd argue they are genetically (and supernaturally) predisposed towards certain viewpoints, and it takes equally powerful or convincing situations to have a chance of altering it. Even then, it always come down to choice. If they possess sentience, they can make choices that defy their nature and eventually... change it. They have to want to make those choices though.

To become Good, you have to have an understanding of what it means to be Good, and why it is the superior way to be. The same goes for Evil. For Law (Order) and for Chaos. Alignment is merely the universe slapping you with a label that reflects that fundamental force that you have aligned yourself with, which best matches your inherent nature at the time.


1 person marked this as a favorite.

Many (most?) humans eat meat, a reasonable number of these meat eating humans are labeled "good" by other humans. Because killing and eating cows, fish, rabbits etc is not considered murder, my guess is because we view them as lesser creatures with no/fewer rights.

So, from a dragon's point of view is a human much different than a cow?


It may help to read of the origin of the Dragons.

TIAMUT, APSU and DAHAK are the progenitor gods of the Dragons, and according to lore, the creators of the entire universe (though there are at least 3 conflicting "ocfficial" stories of the origins of the universe).


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I have a lot of fluff for Dragons in my homebrew setting. A Big part is that colour is based on their Driving motivations; Sin vs. Virtue.

Sin Dragons grow to become Chromatics while Virtue motivate Dragons grow to become Metalics.

This lets me do stories where a Red and Silver Dragon are siblings and such.

If a Dragon's primary motivation were to change it would gradually change colour as it molted.


Greylurker wrote:

I have a lot of fluff for Dragons in my homebrew setting. A Big part is that colour is based on their Driving motivations; Sin vs. Virtue.

Sin Dragons grow to become Chromatics while Virtue motivate Dragons grow to become Metalics.

This lets me do stories where a Red and Silver Dragon are siblings and such.

If a Dragon's primary motivation were to change it would gradually change colour as it molted.

I like that dragons are big obvious personifications of alignment, so I basically follow the same idea.


1 person marked this as a favorite.
Java Man wrote:

Many (most?) humans eat meat, a reasonable number of these meat eating humans are labeled "good" by other humans. Because killing and eating cows, fish, rabbits etc is not considered murder, my guess is because we view them as lesser creatures with no/fewer rights.

So, from a dragon's point of view is a human much different than a cow?

You do nothing but bring confusion into the issue when you attempt to project real world subjective opinions on what constitutes good vs evil (or right vs wrong). Good and Evil are fairly defined in the game terminology, even if a lot of people don't agree with them. When the universe allows for spells that detect alignment, arguing about why it shouldnt be that way is like arguing with gravity as to why it doesn't work another way.

As for your point about a human not being much more different than a cow when it comes to being food, you have a good argument about the scale of difference between the two ... in a linear fashion. I'd suggest that intelligence has an exponential relationship to sentience, rather than a linear one.

Everything (for the most part) has to eat. Killing is not 'Evil' in the D&D universe. Holding no respect for sentient life and having no issues with using that life for your own purposes, without care for its inherent worth, ... that is "Evil".


Just pointing out another issue in trying to teach a dragon to be Good.


A lot of it boils down to the particular setting you're using.

Kasoh wrote:

I think the hardest part about 'nurturing' a chromatic dragon is that dragons live exceptionally long times, so unless its another quasi immortal being or a whole organization, the dragon will eventually be on its own and a dragon's nature is to take.

So, the long life of dragons is a problem.

The second hardest part is that a wyrmling is more like a teenager or young adult than a child, most of the time, and they enter that life stage either immediately after hatching or not all that long after hatching.

Can you influence a 21 year old? Yeah, to some extent, but not nearly as much as a 3 year old.

Community / Forums / Pathfinder / Pathfinder First Edition / General Discussion / Talk to me about Nature vs Nurture with Chromatic Dragons, or if other instincts can win over their evil alignment All Messageboards

Want to post a reply? Sign in.
Recent threads in General Discussion