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When you take an archetype, are you considered that class for game purposes? For example if I archetype into Sorcerer with the dragon bloodline, do I qualify for Dragon Disciple later? If my fighter archetypes into wizard, does he qualify for items that only wizards can use/challenges that only wizards can solve?
Yeah, I vaguely remember the thread. If I remember right, my thought was that if you don't count as being of that class, then you could take the archetype repeatedly. Though that also runs into problems with the general rule about not taking the same feat multiple times.
But I don't see the purpose of not being part of the class that you take the archetype for. Classes don't need that much niche protection.
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My point of view is based on the fact that there is nothing in RAW about MC Dedication that explicitly says you count as having the class when it would have been so easy to write.
And that PF2 is structured around your 1st level Class, with MC Dedication giving some abilities of another class, but very far from all of it. You never get all of the class features, you never get class feats beyond 10th level, a caster MC Dedication does not give you anything like the power of the caster class itself and even the Martial MC Dedication never let you approach the weapons and armor proficiencies of the Martial class either.
In this paradigm, I do not believe spending a class feat to get a MC Dedication is enough to suddenly acquire a new class in addition to what the Dedication explicitly gives.
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class feats—special feats that only members of that class can access.
It matters because the only PCs that can take Fighter feats are Fighters. If MC Fighter made you a Fighter, then what is stopping you from taking the Fighter feats. By having the MC Dedications not make you that class you can only access the class's feat list through the Archetype's feats, usually at a much slower rate than normal.
A level 14 Fighter can take a level 14 Fighter feat. A level 14 Wizard/MC Fighter is not a Fighter, therefore they can only access fighter feats through the MC Fighter Archetype, capping them at feats of half their level or lower.
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class feats—special feats that only members of that class can access.It matters because the only PCs that can take Fighter feats are Fighters. If MC Fighter made you a Fighter, then what is stopping you from taking the Fighter feats. By having the MC Dedications not make you that class you can only access the class's feat list through the Archetype's feats, usually at a much slower rate than normal.
A level 14 Fighter can take a level 14 Fighter feat. A level 14 Wizard/MC Fighter is not a Fighter, therefore they can only access fighter feats through the MC Fighter Archetype, capping them at feats of half their level or lower.
"At 2nd level and every even-numbered level thereafter, you gain a wizard class feat."
For this, it doesn't matter if fighter dedication makes you count as a fighter. The class feature that gives you wizard class feats still only gives you wizard class feats.
The general rules for archetypes allow you to take a dedication feat in place of a class feat, and once you have a dedication for an archetype, you can take the feats in that archetype in place of a class feat. Outside of the exception granted by the archetype rules, you're only allowed to take wizard class feats with your wizard class feats.
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However...
Every level a class gets a class feat they do not just get any class feat, but their specific class feat. So, every even level a wizard gets a wizard class feat. The archetype rules allow for a character to take an archetype feat instead of their base class feat. So, at every even level, a wizard character has the option to take a wizard class feat or an archetype feat.
Therefore...
Based on the CRB quoted text above, if you have access to take X class feat then you must be X class. So...if you take X archetype feat that gives you the opportunity to take an X feat of level whatever, I suppose it stands to reason that you must be a member of that class, after all "only members of that class can access" those feats...
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OK. Ruling that by taking a multiclass archetype you are a member of that class and can therefore take any feat from that class directly is clearly too good to be true.
Ruling that even after taking a multiclass archetype you are still not a member of that class and can therefore not take any of those class's feats even by way of the archetype feats that give you access to them is clearly too bad to be true.
And both of these ideas are definitely not how archetypes work. So I guess you are using them as evidence for the various stands that you are proposing rather than trying to present them as a meaningful question that the ruling is supposed to answer.
So what is the actual question?
I vaguely remember someone mentioning Holy Avenger. Yeah, which has special abilities that can only be accessed by a Paladin Champion.
So an actual question would be 'can a multiclass Champion use the full abilities of a Holy Avenger?'
Are there any other actual questions that people have found about this particular piece of vague rules?
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And for my evidence for one side or the other:
A Multiclass Druid gets to learn the Druidic language.
Only a Druid is allowed to learn the Druidic language.
Therefore a Multiclass Druid is actually a full Druid.
And extending that to the other multiclass archetypes, they would also qualify as full members of the class.
And for my evidence for one side or the other:
A Multiclass Druid gets to learn the Druidic language.
Only a Druid is allowed to learn the Druidic language.
You are forgetting the stealth errata which bound them to the anathema as well.
You learn the Druidic language, and you are bound by the druid's anathema.
Therefore a Multiclass Druid is actually a full Druid.
And extending that to the other multiclass archetypes, they would also qualify as full members of the class.
I get the totally opposite reading from the feat.
The multiclass archetype feats all say "like a" not "are".
They explicitly say that you get specific abilities, and by omission not others.
Which is done for obvious balance reasons.
IMHO it is clear that you gain some but not all class abilities. There is no blanket statement that you count as member of class X. You don't get abilities that it doesn't say you do.
So no. A multiclass Sorcerer does not count as a Sorcerer for purposes of qualifying for Dragon Disciple.
However a mulitclass Champion does get a cause and therefore can potentially be a Paladin and therefore can quaify for Holy Avenger.
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The Druidic language argument is the only convincing argument so far for Class MC Dedication counting as the Class. Which is pretty awkward IMO.
Why specific rules are allowed to overwrite other rules? They do that everywhere. A multiclass Druid counts as a Druid for this purpose. They are bound by the Druid order anathema and the Druid class anathema. Makes perfect sense.
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I would point out that part of the sorcerer dedication establishes a bloodline for your character. It seems odd that a character with an established draconic bloodline would not qualify for dragon disciple.
You don't gain a bloodline, you gain abilities from a bloodline of your choice. You pick a bloodline, you gain the bloodline's two skills, and you gain a spell repertoire based on your choice. It explicitly says "You don't gain any other abilities from your choice of bloodline."
I see it as not having the Bloodline class feature, but rather just gaining abilities that you would normally get from a bloodline.
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You are forgetting the stealth errata which bound them to the anathema as well.
You learn the Druidic language, and you are bound by the druid's anathema.
It wasn't important to the logic.
I get the totally opposite reading from the feat.
The multiclass archetype feats all say "like a" not "are".
They explicitly say that you get specific abilities, and by omission not others.
I read it like a programmer. An object of a class can be put into an array typed by that class. If an interface is created to allow non-class objects to be treated like that class, it would be intended that objects that implement that interface can also be put into the class-typed array along side the actual class objects even though they don't inherit directly from that class. Otherwise the interface is not doing what it is meant to do. 'Like a' inheritance doesn't exist. There is only 'is a' and 'has a'. And interfaces create an 'is a' inheritance.
I read it like a programmer. An object of a class can be put into an array typed by that class. If an interface is created to allow non-class objects to be treated like that class, it would be intended that objects that implement that interface can also be put into the class-typed array along side the actual class objects even though they don't inherit directly from that class. Otherwise the interface is not doing what it is meant to do. 'Like a' inheritance doesn't exist. There is only 'is a' and 'has a'. And interfaces create an 'is a' inheritance.
You need to approach it like Microsoft did inheritance. Consider it more like implementing an interface. Yes it's not pretty but it is useful. Not everything is implemented just what you need.
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See, the "pick a bloodline", to me, indicates that you now have that bloodline. I don't see how it is any different than how a sorcerer, base class, chooses their bloodline. Maybe I'm missing the exclusionary language.
Sorcerers have the Bloodline class feature. Sorcerer Dedication just gains a couple of things from a bloodline of their choice.
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See, the "pick a bloodline", to me, indicates that you now have that bloodline. I don't see how it is any different than how a sorcerer, base class, chooses their bloodline. Maybe I'm missing the exclusionary language.Sorcerers have the Bloodline class feature. Sorcerer Dedication just gains a couple of things from a bloodline of their choice.
So, where does the character get the power to cast the cantrips?
Spoiler,
Choose your bloodline, the source of your power.
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See, the "pick a bloodline", to me, indicates that you now have that bloodline. I don't see how it is any different than how a sorcerer, base class, chooses their bloodline. Maybe I'm missing the exclusionary language.
Yes you are right it does use exactly the same language.
Sorcerer Dedication is the same as Sorcerer it says in both Choose a bloodlineBut reading back at the requirement Dragon Disciple is after a draconic bloodline sorcerer
The requirement for Dracon Disciple is the bloodline. Which you do have. But you don't actually count as a Sorcerer for all purposes. So I think this particular one is open to interpretation. Very easy to read that as just the bloodline which you can have, and claim that is the intention and just accept it. Or just say you aren't actually a Sorcerer and say no.
I read it like a programmer. An object of a class can be put into an array typed by that class. If an interface is created to allow non-class objects to be treated like that class, it would be intended that objects that implement that interface can also be put into the class-typed array along side the actual class objects even though they don't inherit directly from that class. Otherwise the interface is not doing what it is meant to do. 'Like a' inheritance doesn't exist. There is only 'is a' and 'has a'. And interfaces create an 'is a' inheritance.You need to approach it like Microsoft did inheritance. Consider it more like implementing an interface. Yes it's not pretty but it is useful. Not everything is implemented just what you need.
Well sure. But if I have a class Sorcerer and an interface Sorcerer then if I have
PlayerCharacter extends Sorcerer
or
PlayerCharacter implements Sorcerer
both should be able to
pc = new PlayerCharacter();
pc->takeFeat('DragonDiscipleDedication');
Otherwise why even call it Sorcerer Multiclass Archetype? Name it something else and just give it the feats that let you take Sorcerer feats of up to half your character level.
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I for one believe that if you have a multiclass dedication, you should be considered a member of that class.
I for one believe that if you have a multiclass dedication, you should be considered a member of that class.
I agree: it would be odd to call it multiclassing if it didn't involve you being multiple classes.
The Dork has spoken!
EDIT: WTH? That was supposed to be a wizard emoji.
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The Druidic language argument is the only convincing argument so far for Class MC Dedication counting as the Class. Which is pretty awkward IMO.
Why specific rules are allowed to overwrite other rules? They do that everywhere. A multiclass Druid counts as a Druid for this purpose. They are bound by the Druid order anathema and the Druid class anathema. Makes perfect sense.
Every place I checked for the Druidic language mentioned that it was secret, Druid-only. So, if you know it, you're a Druid.
That is enough for me.
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For the most part - except class archetypes for example - it doesn't really matter, because there isn't a whole lot of that class-specific stuff out there. Outside of class feats and features, of course, but you can get a lot of those from the archetypes.
As for the dragon disciple in particular, I would like to point out that the archetype doesn't have *any* requirements. The listed things are only an access entry, meaning you can pick it as if it were common.
Every place I checked for the Druidic language mentioned that it was secret, Druid-only. So, if you know it, you're a Druid.
Interestingly in PF1 Shifters also got the druidic language from their class, but were not Druids. I wonder if that's a thing they'll carry forward in PF2.
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As for the dragon disciple in particular, I would like to point out that the archetype doesn't have *any* requirements. The listed things are only an access entry, meaning you can pick it as if it were common.
Yeah everyone makes that mistakes.
One thing I wonder. If by taking MC I count as the Class and if I take the Natural Ambition Human feat later, can I take a lvl1 feat from the second Class ?
RAI, probably not. Natural Ambition should be limited to the feats from your primary class. And while I would consider the character to be a member of the MC class for meeting game-mechanics prerequisites and in-game memberships, it isn't your primary class.
But the Natural Ambition rules text doesn't actually say that. And I don't feel that it would be too big of a power boost to let it work. The biggest balance point would be that you could use a general feat slot to help pay off the 3-feat requirement of the dedication - which will likely allow you to pay off the dedication at an earlier level.
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You cannot get out earlier though. The feat you would get from Natural Ambition would not count as one of the Dedication feats.
... OK. What am I missing...
Ah. Because the class feat is not from the archetype. Right. I was thinking that class feats from the MC always count because the only way that you get them are through the archetype feats that give you a class feat. The archetype feat counts, but the class feat doesn't. So getting a class feat from some other source also doesn't count towards the payoff.
Heh. That will teach me to post while distracted...
I still don't think that it is intended to work, and I don't fault any GM that wants to forbid it. But I really can't see any good reason why it shouldn't be allowed to work either.
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Taking an archetype does not make you a member of the class. If it did, feats like Basic <class related thing> and Advanced <class related thing> would be pointless, as you would be able to take class feats normally. Only members of a class can take a feat with a Class trait, for example, only a Gunslinger, Rogue, or Ranger can take Quick Draw. With a Dedication feat, you would normally need to take Basic X to get Quick Draw, but if we go ahead and consider you a member of the class, you would be able to take Quick Draw directly. The wording in Advanced X also states "You gain one <class> feat. For the purpose of meeting its prerequisites, your <class> level is equal to half your character level."
Both of these feats are Archetype feats, not Class feats. Their existence proves that you are not a class member by having a class archetype. In order to be a member of a class, you must have levels in that class, but in 2e you can only have levels in a single class (or two if you use the optional Dual-Class rules.)
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Leo mentioned this earlier, and I agree with that. It is the class progression table that gives you the class feats that you are talking about. So when it says that you get a class feat, you don't get a class feat from any class you happen to be a member of, you get a class feat specific to the class progression that is giving you a feat slot. If you have an archetype such as a multiclass archetype, there is a rule in the archetype rules that says you can take an archetype feat in place of that class feat.
Once you have the dedication feat, you can select any feat from that archetype in place of a class feat as long as you meet its prerequisites.
But that archetype rule doesn't say that you can take a class feat of any class you are a member of.
So you still have to use the archetype feats to get the MCD class feats.
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Taking an archetype does not make you a member of the class. If it did, feats like Basic <class related thing> and Advanced <class related thing> would be pointless, as you would be able to take class feats normally.
That is just incorrect. At every even level your base class gives you the ability to take one [your base class] class feat. Therefore, even if you were considered to be another class you couldn't just pick up the other class' class feats.