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I'm just trying to figure out how a number of the alchemists extracts would actually work per the rules or if they'd be just a waste of a slot. For examples I'll use the following two spells delay poison communal and invisibility alarm.
Delay poison communal affects multiple targets yet an alchemists extracts only work for them unless they take infusion and even then work by drinking the extract. Given this how would communal extracts and extracts that affect multiple targets actually work or ones that are generally used on the enemy like dispel magic?
Related to the above how do extracts which affect the environment like invisbility alarm that wards an area and alerts you to an invisible creature entering it or peephole that creates a look through effect work?
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Discussion from a couple of months ago:
https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43gi9?Resist-Energy-Communal-Extract
Plenty of head-scratching and no official conclusions...
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It is like the problem of the potions of Haste or Good Hope. You pay for a spell that affects multiple creatures but do you affect only one.
As Mr. Charisma said in the other thread, an alchemist can use wands that contain the spells he knows as extracts, so having the communal spells in his spell list allows him to use wands of the communal spells.
Not great, but better than nothing.
The Spell Knowledge discovery allows you to cast a wizard spell like a normal arcane caster so you could use that if you really want multi-target buff spells.
The Spell Knowledge discovery allows you to cast a wizard spell like a normal arcane caster so you could use that if you really want multi-target buff spells.
doesn't change the fact that Alchemist has multitarget spells on their extract list... nor does it care about their existance... Spell Knowledge uses the Sorcerer/Wizard spell list for it's selections.
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The Spell Knowledge discovery allows you to cast a wizard spell like a normal arcane caster so you could use that if you really want multi-target buff spells.Alchemist Discovery Spell Knowledge carries incredible penalties and only applies to a single Wiz spell. I can't imagine a PC taking this discovery and only an NPC with dire plot needs. The one Alchemist guide that reviews it gives it a Red (1//5){garbage/terrible} rating.
Still, as it IS a standard casting, the Alchemist will have to touch or designate multiple (friendly) targets. It wouldn't get around the extract limitations.
Your caster level is equal to your alchemist level,
And that is enough to get the different Craft feats that you can't take otherwise.
One discovery to get access to the Craft wondrous items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor feats isn't so bad a trade.
Your caster level is equal to your alchemist level,And that is enough to get the different Craft feats that you can't take otherwise.
One discovery to get access to the Craft wondrous items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor feats isn't so bad a trade.
Alchemist doesn’t even need that discovery to get those two crafting feats specifically… the master craftsman feat specifically covers access to those two. And does a better job at it too since it removes the need for the alchemist to devote skill ranks to a non-class skill for magic item crafting… Crafting Rings, Wands, and Staves are completely out of reach for an alchemist without that discovery though…
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Alchemist doesn’t even need that discovery to get those two crafting feats specifically… the master craftsman feat specifically covers access to those two. And does a better job at it too since it removes the need for the alchemist to devote skill ranks to a non-class skill for magic item crafting… Crafting Rings, Wands, and Staves are completely out of reach for an alchemist without that discovery though…Your caster level is equal to your alchemist level,And that is enough to get the different Craft feats that you can't take otherwise.
One discovery to get access to the Craft wondrous items and Craft Magic Arms and Armor feats isn't so bad a trade.
Master craftsman: "Choose one Craft or Profession skill in which you possess at least 5 ranks. .... You must use the chosen skill for the check to create the item."
Magic item chapter: "Skill Used In Creation: Spellcraft or an applicable Craft or Profession skill check."Master craftsman doesn't change the applicable craft or profession skills needed to make the items, it simply allows you to use it as your caster level. So, if you use Craft (alchemy) you only get a handful of elixir and ointments from Craft wondrous items and no weapon and armor from Craft arms and armor.
If you train Craft (jewelry) you get a decent number of wondrous items, but you still need 2 feats and a skill to do less of what you can do with 1 discovery, 1 feat, and ranks in spellcraft (that probably you will train regardless of thing the crafting feats).
BTW: you can take Master craftsman only once, so you get to use a single skill and you have only a single linked feat.
Well you could say to heck with all this bombs and extract garbage and go Metamorph Alchemist. Dump your mental stats for strength and constitution. At level 5 morph into an Euryale https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/eury ale/ 6 bite attacks at 10ft reach is nice. Go VMC barbarian for more STR/CON. Take feral mutagen discovery for 3 more attacks during mutagen. Fun fun :)
That reminds me I need to see if an explanation was ever given for why alchemists are the only class who need to use a class feature in order to use their "spells" on someone else.
They aren't really the only class, as Investigators have the same issue. Which makes it a limitation build into their style of magic, like ASF for (most) arcane spells or getting shut down by emotion effects for (most) psychic spells.
Also, on the flip side, they're the only class* that can 'cast' personal range spells on party members, and can prepare individual 'spells' in a mere minute whereas others need 15 minutes.
*) Apart from Brown-Fur Transmuter.
I presume extracts work like potions for this part of the rules: "Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil." CRB pg. 478
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I presume extracts work like potions for this part of the rules: "Using a potion or oil provokes attacks of opportunity. An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion or oil container rather than against the character. A successful attack of this sort can destroy the container, preventing the character from drinking the potion or applying the oil." CRB pg. 478
Sure, but like any attempt to sunder an object, that provokes. If the AoO is against the character, the extract is not affected.
Hom many characters have improved sunder?|
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Well you could say to heck with all this bombs and extract garbage and go Metamorph Alchemist. Dump your mental stats for strength and constitution. At level 5 morph into an Euryale https://www.d20pfsrd.com/bestiary/monster-listings/monstrous-humanoids/eury ale/ 6 bite attacks at 10ft reach is nice. Go VMC barbarian for more STR/CON. Take feral mutagen discovery for 3 more attacks during mutagen. Fun fun :)
Not really a fan of that archetype as you give up so much for its abilities.
A review of the metamorph ends with this...
This archetype just isn’t one. It seems like the author wanted to develop a full class, but was only authorized to make an archetype. Everything that makes an alchemist what they are is stripped, and replaced with a scaling SLA and a chance to negate precision damage.
The power curve is the biggest problem. From levels 1-4, it is an Expert with two discoveries (from an extremely limited list), alter self, and mutagen. In other words, it is abjectly terrible. At level 5, it can now get a lot of extra attacks, and some utility in the form of senses and movement speeds. With proper optimization, I think one could be as powerful as a TWF ranger.
At level 9, it suddenly becomes an overwhelming force of destruction. One can be Large and in charge, pumping out a ludicrous number of full BAB attacks, have a versatile array of super-senses and movement types, or simply use any spell-trigger/completion item and every type of armor and weapon proficiently. Every 2 levels from here, the power curve goes even further off the rails, offering a player who has sufficiently studied the Bestiaries’ Monstrous Humanoids virtually any suite of abilities their hearts could desire, including poisons, pounce, fear auras, and free grapple/trip attempts. None of this requires true character customization through resource expenditure, it just comes from the class feature. With Power Attack and some grapple or trip feats/items, it goes from game-breaking to a sick f~*~ing joke. Simply put, this is the worst example of class design I have encountered since 3.5 splats.
Poweful yes but not to my taste.
Sure, but like any attempt to sunder an object, that provokes. If the AoO is against the character, the extract is not affected.
Hom many characters have improved sunder?
I've always understood that to be a special type of AoO. If you have to use the sunder maneuver, that's a whole lot of text just to remind you of the option to sunder, while leaving out what is/would be the most important part of the reminder. Especially since the sunder description has the misleading "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack" wording.
Also, "An enemy may direct an attack of opportunity against the potion" doesn't sound like "An enemy may replace the attack of opportunity with a sunder combat maneuver performed agaisnt the potion". 'direct' isn't a game term, but it's usage elsewhere in the rules seems to be more in line with "pick a target" than "chose the kind of attack you're making".|
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First, sunder can be made as part of any melee attack:
under: Can I make multiple sunder attempts in one round as part of a full-attack action? The sunder text says that I can make sunder attempts in place of melee attacks in an attack action, which is not technically a full-attack action.
Yes you can. The text is a little unclear here. Instead of saying "as part of an attack action in place of a melee attack", the text should read "in place of a melee attack", which would allow you to make multiple attempts in one round, or even make a sunder attempt as an attack of opportunity.
posted November 2012 | back to top
Second, you are arguing that is a "special attack" that has no rules about how it works. What is the AC of the potion? Does it provoke?
As there are rules for attacking attended objects, and those are the Sunder rules, saying that you make a special attack that has no rules instead of making a Sunder attempt is counterintuitive.