Venture-Agent, Online—VTT
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Well, there are the society-specific rules about extra Hero Points being granted at the start of the session for things like for GM Glyphs or Campaign Coins. They are used in the normal manner, though.
If you can remember any details about what this argument was, it might help to get to the bottom of it, though. There may be some element of misunderstanding about what the CRB rules mean. For example, I know that a lot of us incorrectly assumed at first that you need to choose to use a Hero Point before finding out what degree of success your original check would be, because we were used to 1st edition using that type of rule.
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So is there any documented changes to Hero Points for PFS or they work as written in the Core Rulebook?
This is kind of nitty, but I'm not entirely sure you're asking the right question.
1. Hero Points are loosely described in the CRB.
2. Society had some additional rules around Hero Points when the CRB was released.
3. I don't know how well-documented those additional rules are.
4. Society has had some rulings clarifying/changing things about the original rules.
5. I don't know how well-documented those changes are.
Presumably, you're looking for a document that says "these are the rules for Hero Points" - I don't think that exists. It's going to be piecemeal, so, "look in the CRB, and then add these rules from the Guide to Organized Play, and then look at this thread and this post for errata." It's, unfortunately, just the way it is with many heavily-revised rules.
Specifically regarding GM glyphs in Bounties, I don't know what the lawful answer is, but my chaotic good take on it is that you're given broad authority to hand out Hero Points, so if you think 1 Hero Point per PC is stingy, you can always hand out additional Hero Points that coincidentally match the number of PFS GM glyphs at the table.
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I mentioned Bounties up thread.
They're run in "Adventure Mode", which means the GM can pretty much run the game however they wish, as long as the game is still recognizably PF2 and they generally still tell the story of the Adventure.
You can increase difficulty, decrease difficulty, run houserules, you don't delete consumables from your inventory when used, your characters can't be recorded as dead, and, it's up to the GM to determine how Hero Points are handled.
Just like running a Book in an Adventure Path. Really the only Society restriction is that you have to use a PFS legal character.
Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Typical arguments about heropoints revolve around the following things:
1. A GM that is playing can give other players extra heropoints, one per glyph they have earned. Can a GM that is GMing also give the players extra heropoints for their glyphs?
A: It seems the consensus is "no", because they are the GM, not a player. On the other hand, they ARE the GM and are responsible for handing out heropoints, so nothing stops them from giving an extra or two for good roleplay and so on, so this is kinda inconsequential question.
2. Do you use a heropoint before you know the result of your roll or after?
A: After. This has been clarified by a Dev. 2e "rerolls" are all either: "Roll twice and take better" or "reroll after you know the result." There are no abilities which force you to "guess" if your roll succeeded or not to decide if you want to reroll or not.
3. How should a GM hand out heropoints?
A: The guide states that you should hand out 1 hero point approximately every 1 hour of gameplay after the first, and the CRB gives an example of handing out 3 hero points for a 4 hour session. However, sometimes the adventure gives you a suggestion or tells you when to give out a heropoint. This also isn't tied to a timer - your players can't just stop and sit around for a couple hours to "recharge heropoints", although many GM's like to set an alarm to remind them that a heropoint would be due.
Also, sometimes adventures are really quick, despite having lots of challenges - doesn't necessarily mean you should hand out 'less' heropoints just because your players completed the adventure in 3 hours instead of 4. Likewise, sometimes adventures are really long, despite having the normal amount of encounters and challenges - doesn't necessarily mean you should award them extra heropoints just because there's lots of RP.
And sometimes adventures take longer because they do have more challenges and encounters in them and that's why they run long - you should probably consider handing out an extra heropoint or two if this is the case.
Some GM's like to award all the heropoints (Or Extra Heropoints) at the end of the adventure, just before the boss battle, to make sure everyone has a HP to stabilise in case the fight goes south. I don't think that's the intention, especially if you have a 6-party group because then you're handing out double the amount of Heropoints that was intended - just play the boss slightly less lethally instead. However, barring a more strict rules for heropoints, they are ultimately a GM call.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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It certainly violates "run as written" LESS than giving out extra heropoints right before the fight. (No, it doesn't violate it as long as you don't actually change the boss statistics. Tactics do a lot.)
PFS isn't chess, and the goal of the GM isn't to "win" by killing all the PC's. Nothing forces you to make the boss attack the prone PC that already went to wounded 1 and was now healed to 5hp by a first level heal or potion. Nothing forces you to use optimal strategies like flanking or grabbing with minions. You can always spread damage out instead of focus firing one PC at a time. Often, starting spots aren't marked on the map (especially for additional monsters that come from scaling) - how you place them can greatly affect the difficulty of the combat. You could use spells and abilities against PC's that are weak to them, or vs PCs that are strong against them.
Yes, Run As Written - but that still gives you quite a bit of leeway on how the fights play out.
A goal of the Pathfinder Society program is to provide a fun, engaging, consistent experience at all tables. GMs should run Pathfinder Society adventures as written, which means:No change to major plot points and interactions
No addition or subtraction to the number of monsters other than scaling directed by the scenario
No changes to armor, feats, items, skills, spells, statistics, traits, or weapons.
No alteration of mechanics of player characters,
Nor banning of legal character options.Beyond the above, GMs are encouraged to make choices which would result in the most enjoyable play experience for everyone at the table and that emphasize PCs are the heroes of the story.
Creature tactics are a common variable in how difficult a battle is going to be. Sometimes tactics are clearly spelled out, some times they aren't, and even when they are given, it is up to the GM to determine when PCs actions "invalidate a given tactic".
The fight can be incredibly hard and can easily kill off PC's. However, the difficulty is greatly affected by the description of the fight in the adventure text: Text says the boss wants to drag someone to their lair. There's no "drag" action. If one GM thus ignores this part (it's not mechanically possible and not explicitly stated as a tactic) and goes to maul the PCs, the fight is very hard. If another GM uses the boss' special ability to keep tossing a pc towards the lair, the fight is much easier because the boss will waste actions on grab and move instead of striking more. If a third GM attempts to position the boss so that they can Shove PCs towards the lair, the fight becomes very easy due to wasted actions that deal no damage.
Another common example are animals and how they are run. Do you make them attack the nearest PC? The weakest PC? Gang up on one, or each enemy pics their own target? Go to the closest square, or circle farther to go for flanking? Or do you switch targets if the PC is tanky - has high AC/lots of HP but isn't dealing damage, to go after the healer/damage dealer? There's a lot a GM can do to affect the difficulty of a fight while still running the adventure as it was written.
Venture-Captain, Germany—Bavaria
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Whenever you are GMing there is always some room for interpretation, for example, if your group consists of new players and our kids, it's perfectly reasonable for the GM to not always choose perfect tactics.
Most scenarios are also not super prescriptive when it comes to monster tactics, personally, I am a big fan of showing off all the weird monster abilities, instead of going to the option that causes the highest DPS.
Regarding Hero points, try to follow the guidelines in the CRB but also consider that there might be reasons to deviate from that (such as 6 player tables, the game seems to assume 4 players in most areas).
Regarding "thing someone heard in passing at a convention" I would personally ignore it until you get more details, or preferably until you get something in writing. Conventions are a busy time, and sometimes people make mistakes.
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2. Do you use a heropoint before you know the result of your roll or after?
A: After. This has been clarified by a Dev. 2e "rerolls" are all either:"Roll twice and take better"or "reroll after you know the result." There are no abilities which force you to "guess" if your roll succeeded or not to decide if you want to reroll or not.
Minor correction: in 2E, you're stuck with the result of the reroll.
It's SFS where you get to choose which roll to use.
Which makes sense, because you only get one reroll in SFS (if you even have one at all).
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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2. Do you use a heropoint before you know the result of your roll or after?
A: After. This has been clarified by a Dev. 2e "rerolls" are all either:"Roll twice and take better"or "reroll after you know the result." There are no abilities which force you to "guess" if your roll succeeded or not to decide if you want to reroll or not.Minor correction: in 2E, you're stuck with the result of the reroll.
It's SFS where you get to choose which roll to use.
Which makes sense, because you only get one reroll in SFS (if you even have one at all).
What? I was describing two different kinds of abilities, ones that allow you to roll twice and take the better, and others that allow you to reroll after you know the result. There are several examples of abilities that allow you to roll twice and take the better, including true strike and diviner's sight focus spell. Granted, I should have probably said ' in 2e, abilities which allow for multiple rolls are all either:..." instead of using "rerolls" in quotes, since you need to activate those -before- you do the original roll. However, point stands - you no longer need to guess if your roll was good enough or not.
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2. Do you use a heropoint before you know the result of your roll or after?
A: After. This has been clarified by a Dev. 2e "rerolls" are all either: "Roll twice and take better" or "reroll after you know the result." There are no abilities which force you to "guess" if your roll succeeded or not to decide if you want to reroll or not.
Can you provide a link to the Dev stating hero point re-rolls require you to know the results first?
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It's part of the basic rules found in the Core Rulebook.
Hero Points allow you reroll one check.
And the general rules for handling checks involve 4 steps, which must be completed.
Unless you have a specific ability that overrides those general rules.
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It's part of the basic rules found in the Core Rulebook.
Hero Points allow you reroll one check.
And the general rules for handling checks involve 4 steps, which must be completed.
Unless you have a specific ability that overrides those general rules.
The GM continues to state Buhlman plays hero point retools otherwise. Looking for a post from Buhlman or Compton to prove him wrong.
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The GM continues to state Buhlman plays hero point retools otherwise. Looking for a post from Buhlman or Compton to prove him wrong.It's part of the basic rules found in the Core Rulebook.
Hero Points allow you reroll one check.
And the general rules for handling checks involve 4 steps, which must be completed.
Unless you have a specific ability that overrides those general rules.
Bulmahn isn't, and has never been, a member of Campaign Leadership.
John Compton was, but to my knowledge has never issued an official clarification or statement that contradicts the rules I linked.
And Society defaults to the rules in print first.
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Venture-Lieutenant, Finland—Turku
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Can you provide a link to the Dev stating hero point re-rolls require you to know the results first?2. Do you use a heropoint before you know the result of your roll or after?
A: After. This has been clarified by a Dev. 2e "rerolls" are all either: "Roll twice and take better" or "reroll after you know the result." There are no abilities which force you to "guess" if your roll succeeded or not to decide if you want to reroll or not.
Sure!
Mark Seifter's discord channel + specific post"We removed all those annoying "Use it before the results are announced" effects because they give no benefit but can just be frustrating or much more powerful for those with metagame knowledge"
Which in turn was in reply to a link to this thread about hero points:
Do you need to choose to Hero Point Before or after knowing the resultHero Points are also a fortune effect, which is referenced in this sidebar:rules on checks in CRB
Fortune and misfortune effects can alter how you roll your dice. These abilities might allow you to reroll a failed roll, force you to reroll a successful roll, allow you to roll twice and use the higher result, or force you to roll twice and use the lower result.
Venture-Captain, Wisconsin—Franklin
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Thanks for everyone's help.
Due to some shuffling schedules, it was hard to talk to everyone involved.
Sounds like it was one GM who was running it the "Spend before you know" way a la 1E and a miscommunication as to when it changed. The info in this thread is going to go a long way to restoring peace in our area.
Thank you all!