The fearsome rune "When you critically hit with this weapon, the target becomes frightened 1."
If I put the fearsome rune on a weapon with the trip trait, and make a trip attempt against an opponents Reflex DC and the trip attack with the weapon crits against the Reflex DC, does the opponent become frightened 1, as per the rune's effect?
It makes sense to me that it should, but I couldn't find anything to clarify this. I don't want to wishfully read into something to get it to say what I want it to do, when it might not work the way I want it to.
Any thoughts and clarifications would be welcome.
For me, a "hit" means a successful attack roll against AC. Since you don't roll a Trip agaist AC and since it is not an attack roll (despite having the attack trait), I would not let Fearsome trigger on a crit trip.
Thanks for the replies. They bring back down to earth with what I can do with the rune.
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Actually, I think they're wrong, the attack trait says:
"An ability with this trait involves an attack. For each attack you make beyond the first on your turn, you take a multiple attack penalty."
then the rules for critical hits say (Emphasis Mine)
"When you make an attack and succeed with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack exceeds the target's AC by 10, you achieve a critical success (also known as a critical hit).
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage. Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes."
The attack trait makes trip an attack, critical hits tell you critical successes are synonymous with critical hits for attacks, and then it even alludes to 'some uses of the athletics skill' on a list of 'other attacks'
To conclude, the Fearsome Rune should function off a critical success of trip, short of a houserule that it doesn't or errata.
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I agree it's for critical hit with attacks
Trip is an attack tho.
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Since a trip is not an attack roll, and the critical hit is specific to attack roles, they do not trigger on a critical success on trip.
I'm not sure your second point is right. The 'critical hit' rules say "attacks" and not "attack rolls" and, as quoted above, the section even mentions both Strikes and Athletics checks.
Whether or not that's intentional or something they missed when they were changing how trips worked in the errata I can't say, but as written it does not specify attack rolls.
I think it would work. It is clearly (to me) an attack despite not having an attack roll.
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A critical hit is only defined as part of a strike or spell attack role.
This is incorrect. The sentence defining critical hits never says 'attack roll'. In fact, in that paragraph the word 'roll' doesn't even appear.
It did say roll before the errata that changed how athletics checks work, but that was removed and changed to 'succeed' in that same errata.
Again, references to 'attack roll' were specifically removed when they updated the CRB's language to make it clear Trip/Grapple/Disarm/etc. aren't attack rolls.
For uses of athletics, they specify a critical success, which is a different thing than a critical hit.
They use 'critical success' to describe all three of the actions mentioned in that heading. Strikes, Spell Attacks and athletics checks. Spell attacks and athletics attacks are even brought up in the same sentence together here, so why would you rule one of them works differently than the other?
They are also separate paragraphs indicating a change in topic.
It's a separate paragraph, but it's part of the same heading, a heading literally called critical hits. The heading describes strikes and 'other attacks' such as spell attack rolls and certain athletics checks.
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Sometimes it is useful to take a step back or to look at similar runes in context
I just looked at the wording of some other property runes
This weapon is empowered by flickering flame. The weapon deals an additional 1d6 fire damage on a successful Strike, plus 1d10 persistent fire damage on a critical hit.
Weapons with wounding runes are said to thirst for blood. When you hit a creature with a wounding weapon, you deal an extra 1d6 persistent bleed damage. On a critical hit, it instead deals 1d12 persistent bleed damage.
A disrupting weapon pulses with positive energy, dealing an extra 1d6 positive damage to undead. On a critical hit, the undead is also enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.
When you critically hit with this weapon, the target becomes frightened 1.
All four runes have in common, that a critical hit has an effect.
The Flaming Rune is probably worded best. It mentions Strike.
The Wounding Rune starts to get murky. It uses hit instead of Strike.
Disrupting now really gets undefined. Extra damage - it doesn't even specify if you strike or hit.
Fearsome only has an effect on a critical. So there is no hit, strike or other wording we can use.
I don't think anyone argues that the first three should work on a trip - so why is that the case?
Wounding uses instead - that is the strongest wording - and a success on a trip isn't a hit. Flaming uses plus - the tripped enemy already takes d6 bludgeoning - so why do we not apply the 'plus' to it - because we associate the plus with the Strike.
I never realized how badly Disrupting is worded. Extra damage - extra to what? I assume a successful strike. The 'also' is also rather weak.
In summary:
I found 18 different property runes with extra effects on a critical hit. Some clearly rule out non-strikes. Some indirectly rule out non-strikes. Some - like fearsome - have wording that is up for interpretation.
My interpretation - ALL property runes need a hit/strike to trigger the critical hit effect. Everything else would lead to different case by case meaning of the wording critical hit for property runes and a cherry pick by users.
Fun bit - compare the wording for Axiomatic and Anarchic. Where does it make sense that one allows to be counted for trip, the other doesn't? Oh - and let me know which should be which before looking up the wording in the CRB.
Other Property Runes with critical hit effects
Crushing: Weapons with this rune empower your strength, and attacks with these weapons leave your foe staggered. When you critically hit a target with this weapon, your target becomes clumsy 1 and enfeebled 1 until the end of your next turn.
Corrosive: Acid sizzles across the surface of the weapon. When you hit with the weapon, add 1d6 acid damage to the damage dealt. In addition, on a critical hit, the target’s armor (if any) takes 3d6 acid damage (before applying Hardness); if the target has a shield raised, the shield takes this damage instead.
Frost: This weapon is empowered with freezing ice. It deals an additional 1d6 cold damage on a successful Strike. On a critical hit, the target is also slowed 1 until the end of your next turn unless it succeeds at a DC 24 Fortitude save.
Shock: Electric arcs crisscross this weapon, dealing an extra 1d6 electricity damage on a hit. On a critical hit, electricity arcs out to deal an equal amount of electricity damage to up to two other creatures of your choice within 10 feet of the target.
Thundering: This weapon lets out a peal of thunder when it hits, dealing an extra 1d6 sonic damage on a successful Strike. On a critical hit, the target has to succeed at a DC 24 Fortitude save or be deafened for 1 minute (or 1 hour on a critical failure).
Grievious: When your attack roll with this weapon is a critical hit and gains the critical specialization effect, you gain an additional benefit depending on the weapon group.
Anchoring: This rune prevents enemies from escaping your grasp by fleeing to other planes. If you critically hit a target with an anchoring weapon, the weapon casts dimensional anchor on the target (DC 27, counteract modifier +17).
Impactful: This rune thrums with pure magical energy. Weapons with the rune deal an additional 1d6 force damage on a successful Strike. On a critical hit, you can choose to force the target to succeed at a DC 27 Fortitude save or be pushed 5 feet away from you.
Hopeful: A weapon with a hopeful rune exudes positivity. On a critical hit with this weapon, you inspire your comrades, pushing them to fight harder and stand for your shared convictions. Allies within 30 feet that share at least one alignment component with you gain a +1 status bonus to attack rolls until the end of your next turn.
Anarchic: When you critically succeed at a Strike with this weapon against a lawful creature, roll 1d6. On a 1 or 2, you deal double minimum damage; on a 3 or 4, double your damage normally; on a 5 or 6, you deal double maximum damage.
Axiomatic: When you critically succeed at an attack roll with this weapon against a chaotic creature, instead of rolling, count each weapon damage die as average damage rounded up (3 for d4, 4 for d6, 5 for d8, 6 for d10, 7 for d12).
Brilliant: This rune causes a weapon to transform into pure, brilliant energy. The weapon deals an additional 1d4 fire damage on a successful Strike, as well as 1d4 good damage to fiends and 1d4 positive damage to undead. On a critical hit, the target must succeed at a DC 29 Fortitude save or be blinded for 1 round.
Keen: The edges of a keen weapon are preternaturally sharp. Attacks with this weapon are a critical hit on a 19 on the die as long as that result is a success. This property has no effect on a 19 if the result would be a failure.
Bloodthirsty: The magic in this rune sings in time with your attacks and coaxes you into finishing your opponent. When you critically hit a target that's taking persistent bleed damage, your target becomes drained 1.
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Since a trip is not an attack roll, and the critical hit is specific to attack roles, they do not trigger on a critical success on trip.I'm not sure your second point is right. The 'critical hit' rules say "attacks" and not "attack rolls" and, as quoted above, the section even mentions both Strikes and Athletics checks.
Whether or not that's intentional or something they missed when they were changing how trips worked in the errata I can't say, but as written it does not specify attack rolls.
Disagree.
A critical hit is only defined as part of a strike or spell attack role. For uses of athletics, they specify a critical success, which is a different thing than a critical hit. They are also separate paragraphs indicating a change in topic. The critical hit line refers to AC which is only used for strikes and spell attack roles.
The fallacy is equating a critical success as meaning the same thing as a critical hit. They are only called the same thing in the context of attack rolls, ie things that target AC.
A successful athletics check is not a hit, and a critically successful athletic check is not a critical hit. Do you critically hit with a tumble through check? or a jump check? No these are critical successes.
See my post above, a critical hit and a critical success are synonymous by the rules, the rules that define them as the same are the basic rules for criticals, it isn't a fallacy, it is the rules and clearly stated.
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@Thod
Thanks for the summary. Long, but worth the read as it provides much more context than any of the other posts here and, imo, makes the RAI pretty clear.
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@The-Magic-Sword
I disagree
When you make an attack and succeed with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack exceeds the target’s AC by 10, you achieve a critical success (also known as a critical hit).
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage (page 451). Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes.
It says AC - not DC !! So strict reading means if you succeed a trip "with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20)' then you might call it a critical hit.
But any other critical success - not rolling a nat20 would only be a critical success and not a critical hit. This might sound like hair splitting - but I just read the rules as written.
I'm not saying it makes sense - I just don't ignore the two letters AC which seems everyone here who says a critical success on a trip = critical hit seems to do - unless there is another definition of critical hits.
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@The-Magic-Sword
I disagree
When you make an attack and succeed with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack exceeds the target’s AC by 10, you achieve a critical success (also known as a critical hit).
If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage (page 451). Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes.
It says AC - not DC !! So strict reading means if you succeed a trip "with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20)' then you might call it a critical hit.
But any other critical success - not rolling a nat20 would only be a critical success and not a critical hit. This might sound like hair splitting - but I just read the rules as written.
I'm not saying it makes sense - I just don't ignore the two letters AC which seems everyone here who says a critical success on a trip = critical hit seems to do - unless there is another definition of critical hits.
I don't think you're splitting hairs, but the only definition of a critical hit in the actual game is this allusion where they clarify its the same thing as a critical success.
For your reading to be correct we would have to have some other context for what a critical hit is.
Then of course, trip is an attack and has the attack trait, so a critical success with it qualifies as a critical hit with an attack. If we can't rely on the attack trait to tell us something is an attack, we've left the book completely.
The real problem is that the words between "AC" and "Critical Hit" don't create a sentence that means "in this case a critical success is a critical hit" the text only says that a critical success is also known as a critical hit. A strict reading of the text is that it does not suggest there are any circumstances where a critical success *isn't* a critical hit, because the books is informing us one is the other with no conditional statements affecting the relationship between the "Critical Hit" and "Critical Success" words beyond them being equivocal, there's no language operating as an if/than between That statement and the earlier mention of AC.
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For your reading to be correct we would have to have some other context for what a critical hit is.
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Ok - now I see where different interpretations come from.
I would say with an emphatic yes - there is a lot of context.
Jared Walter cites page 445.
I did list the 18 uses of critical success / critical hit when used in conjunction with property runes (just scroll up).
I will even go beyond that
There are 73 mentions of 'critical hit' in the CRB (word search). Lots of them include phrases like 'if your Strike was a critical hit' or . 'a critical hit with
a melee Strike'. 8 out of the first 10 explicitly mention Strike in conjunction with critical hit. The two others use Goblin Weapon and attack instead.
So throughout the book critical hit is being used in places where it either is a critical success of a strike or could be a critical success of a strike.
There are 350 mentions of critical success in the book. In a few places it is used together with a strike - but more commonly it is used for any roll or effect that was a success and a nat 20 or did exceed the DC by 10.
So just to say it again - there is a lot of context how critical hit and critical success are used throughout the CRB and in which cases one seems preferred over the other.
So we end up with the allusion of a clarification they are the same vs the repeated use of the term in conjunction with strike or situations that imply/might be a strike.
So yes - either side could be right. I'm clearly in the second camp unless shown something more concrete.
, a critical hit and a critical success are synonymous by the rules, the rules that define them as the same are the basic rules for criticals, it isn't a fallacy, it is the rules and clearly stated.
I agree the rules which define a critical hit are:
When you make an attack and succeed with a natural 20 (the number on the die is 20), or if the result of your attack exceeds the target's AC by 10, you achieve a critical success (also known as a critical hit).If you critically succeed at a Strike, your attack deals double damage. Other attacks, such as spell attack rolls and some uses of the Athletics skill, describe the specific effects that occur when their outcomes are critical successes.
It is pretty clear strikes and non strikes have potential for critical hits.
Fearsome clearly cares about criticals hits not about strikes.
When you critically hit with this weapon, the target becomes frightened 1.
Sigh.
Another minor gotcha in the wordings around attacks, attacks rolls, checks with the attack trait...
'Hit' and 'Critical Hit' are referring to attack rolls - so Strike and Spell Attack, not skills-based attack-trait actions like Trip and Grapple.
Sigh.
Another minor gotcha in the wordings around attacks, attacks rolls, checks with the attack trait...
Sigh.
I dare anyone to do better. Create an entire 500 page RPG CRB; in English (the most messed up language on the planet); at a reading level that 9-year-old kids can understand; with enough content to describe and define most characters, and most actions and activities that those characters are going to attempt to do. Then post it available online and let the entire internet take a look and see how many inconsistency and ambiguity errors your CRB has.
Now try doing it with a handful of different contributors so that your CRB can be finished in less than 80 years. See how many errors it has then.
Perfect is the enemy of good. Done is better than perfect.
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'Hit' and 'Critical Hit' are referring to attack rolls - so Strike and Spell Attack, not skills-based attack-trait actions like Trip and Grapple.
Sigh.
Another minor gotcha in the wordings around attacks, attacks rolls, checks with the attack trait...
Sigh.
I dare anyone to do better. Create an entire 500 page RPG CRB; in English (the most messed up language on the planet); at a reading level that 9-year-old kids can understand; with enough content to describe and define most characters, and most actions and activities that those characters are going to attempt to do. Then post it available online and let the entire internet take a look and see how many inconsistency and ambiguity errors your CRB has.
Now try doing it with a handful of different contributors so that your CRB can be finished in less than 80 years. See how many errors it has then.
Perfect is the enemy of good. Done is better than perfect.
They choose this level of complexity.
This is the internet era and there are editors. Just go back a fix a few things up its not hard. In fact getting it out there quickly and fixing whatever is required is often the fastest way to done.