Figher MC Magus is the Superior Magus

[Golurkcanfly]

Also, resistance is flat damage reduction. As long as you deal enough damage that you're still doing damage through said resistance, then other damage types don't actually add damage. Instead, they can run into *other* resistances.

30 Bludgeoning damage against Bludgeoning Resistance 10 is the same amount of damage as 15 Bludgeoning + 15 Fire vs Bludgeoning Resistance 10, except the latter can run into more issues with Fire Resistance, which is more common than Fire Weakness.

If resistance was a percentage decrease and not a flat decrease, then yes, it'd be valuable, but as-is, it's only valuable when a weakness is present or if you couldn't bypass the resistance to begin with, and is actively worse when up against double resistance.

[WWHsmackdown]

Outside of not liking the spell strike provoking I think the magus was knocked out of the park. Fighter MCing to have better cantrip spell strikes is fine to me bc fighter is king of damage and I'm fine with that always being the upper ceiling. The magus blends magic and martial prowess and does good damage in relation to non fighter martials. I don't see much to be miffed about.

[Captain Morgan]

You know, I really didn't want to dig into the math too much, because I will admit I'm not the best math guy and I feel like it is missing the point of the class, but since that seems to be the only that matters for this thread...

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

It is ugly. Here is a chart of a fighter MC Magus with a Greatsword doing their one a fight spellstrike with a cantrip, then hitting two rounds of regular greatsword attacks (2 strikes in one, 3 strikes in the other since I let magus use an action for arcane cascale.

https://imgur.com/a/iI7mxrr

Why does the chart exist before level 4? That's the first point a fighter can actually use the strategy you describe.

Quote:

The other line is a magus going full nova. Using a top level shocking grasp, then cascade and strike twice, then another top level shocking grasp.

This doesn't sound like full nova to me. First off, according to Kyrone shocking grasp isn't actually the best spell for most of the spell levels.

Secondly, a true nova isn't just dealing as much damage as possible over a full round, it is dealing as much damage as possible right up front. Inflicting X damage in the first round can be more valuable than dealing X+Y damage across the whole fight, because that upfront damage might remove an enemy from the fight before they can act. That's why people don't love alchemist persistent damage.

Thirdly, if we really want pure nova, what happens if you throw a True Strike in there? (Magus will have more of these to spend than the fighter, regardless of whether it is from hybrid slots or a staff of divination.) How about a hero point, which can be spent after you've seen if you rolled a failure?

Fourthly, what about Conflux spells? If we are looking at 3 full rounds (which again, doesn't actually seem like a nova test) then they need to be used to recharge the spell strike for round 3. If this is a great sword magus, presumably you are starting with Thunderous strike which only adds a small amount of damage but can affect a group and knock people prone. At higher levels you can use Runic Impressions and Hasted Assault, both of which can add more damage than Arcane Cascade. (It isn't actually sounding like Arcane Cascade is worth the actions in this scenario, anyway. Seemly like multiclassing fighter to pick up some press attacks would be better.)

Maybe you already factored all that into your initial math... But I'm still curious how a Magus's best round compares to the fighters, especially with a proper high level spell.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Captain Morgan wrote:

Why does the chart exist before level 4? That's the first point a fighter can actually use the strategy you describe.

Didn't tweak it. But a 2h fighter Power attack is the same or better than a spellstrike from 1-2 for example. Fighter is hard to beat early hah (Doesn't even add in that they have AoO)

Quote:

This doesn't sound like full nova to me. First off, according to Kyrone shocking grasp isn't actually the best spell for most of the spell levels.

Secondly, a true nova isn't just dealing as much damage as possible over a full round, it is dealing as much damage as possible right up front. Inflicting X damage in the first round can be more valuable than dealing X+Y damage across the whole fight, because that upfront damage might remove an enemy from the fight before they can act. That's why people don't love alchemist persistent damage.

Thirdly, if we really want pure nova, what happens if you throw a True Strike in there? (Magus will have more of these to spend than the fighter, regardless of whether it is from hybrid slots or a staff of divination.) How about a hero point, which can be spent after you've seen if you rolled a failure?

Fourthly, what about Conflux spells? If we are looking at 3 full rounds (which again, doesn't actually seem like a nova test) then they need to be used to recharge the spell strike for round 3. If this is a great sword magus, presumably you are starting with Thunderous strike which only adds a small amount of...

Fair points. To answer them in turn-

Shocking Grasp - Differences are minor between it and other spells. It is the best upfront damage, or tied for best lvls 1-3, 5-6. Polar ray is a bit better I think at 7, but the difference is tiny.

Removing Enemies Early - Absolutely true! However two things. The fighter starts off with a spellstrike too, and it is almost as big (maybe 10% difference?) as the magus. Plus, an enemy worth using your top level spell strike on is almost certainly not dying round one. (Well, I mean it could if everyone crits I suppose, but how often does that happen)

True Strike - Ooh, this one is hard to calculate hah. Problem is it uses another action which Magus don't really have to spare, and depends on the magus being in position at the start of the turn. Fighter can also true strike using their spellstrike to almost the same effect. This one is too much too math out, too many variables.

Conflux Spells - Fighter gets it too from the hybrid study, so it is a wash.

[BendKing]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

The Magus just has some questionable downsides for it's strengths which already have reasonable balance decisions. Spellstrike is balanced by needing to recharge. They only get 4-6 spells per day, so their spellcasting isn't that great (especially when they are behind on proficiency). They also have rather poor class feats, with some particularly questionable choices (why is Raise a Tome two feats just to have a token benefit over normal shield usage?). They're inherently MAD, so they will have less defenses since they can't invest in defensive stats as freely. They also have a much tighter action economy, so aren't as flexible in that regard.

But on top of that, they have less HP and provoke AoO for using their primary feature that is supposed to be used in melee (so, not like an Archer who is punished for bad positioning and can just Step out of AoO range).

Now, Starlit Span gets around this, but that's a rather character-defining option and doesn't help the other subclasses. Reach also helps somewhat, but that drastically limits options when Reach is already stronger for other reasons. It's needlessly punishing for the majority of Magi when the benefits it gets are either already balanced by other elements *or* are incredibly token.

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

The complaint, as far as I can read it, isn't that the Magus isn't the best martial in the game. It's the the magus, putting all their resources into one gimmick that they can only pull off a couple times a day, doesn't actually excel very much at doing that thing. The fighter being better than the magus is almost irrespective of that, it's just used as a comparison point because clearly for a lot of people, the Magus sells itself on these peaks and valleys, but apparently its peaks aren't actually really peaks.

Succintly put, thank you.

Squiggit wrote:

Watery Soup wrote:

1E players

None of the people playing a Magus in any of my current games have ever even played PF1, but they nova with their spell slots because they think its cool.

Exactly. The classes flavor is doing the big spellstrike. Which while flashy, is actually bad. Classes should be GOOD at what their flavor is to do, that is why a lot of people play them.

Magus has issues with that, both in the AoO thing, in their spellstrike not being a lot of damage, and their action econ making it hard to pull off.

I LIKE Magus, I just want to improve it. The designer did a great job improving Magus from the playtest. But when you make big changes, it is hard to nail it right away, basic design principles. Magus needs a bit of iterating. Nothing massive or class changing, but remove a few stumbling blocks, kick up the spellstrike damage maybe, etc.

Well said. I would be interested in discussing how to buff the Magus with you both if that's something you would find interesting.

[Golurkcanfly]

BendKing wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

The Magus just has some questionable downsides for it's strengths which already have reasonable balance decisions. Spellstrike is balanced by needing to recharge. They only get 4-6 spells per day, so their spellcasting isn't that great (especially when they are behind on proficiency). They also have rather poor class feats, with some particularly questionable choices (why is Raise a Tome two feats just to have a token benefit over normal shield usage?). They're inherently MAD, so they will have less defenses since they can't invest in defensive stats as freely. They also have a much tighter action economy, so aren't as flexible in that regard.

But on top of that, they have less HP and provoke AoO for using their primary feature that is supposed to be used in melee (so, not like an Archer who is punished for bad positioning and can just Step out of AoO range).

Now, Starlit Span gets around this, but that's a rather character-defining option and doesn't help the other subclasses. Reach also helps somewhat, but that drastically limits options when Reach is already stronger for other reasons. It's needlessly punishing for the majority of Magi when the benefits it gets are either already balanced by other elements *or* are incredibly token.

Well said. I would be interested in discussing how to buff the Magus with you if that's something you would find interesting.

Honestly, just a little more durability. 10 base HP and Spellstrike not triggering AoO would go a long way.

Alternatively, some more action economy boosters, but that's less of an issue for the Magus compared to some classes (Melee Investigator).

[BendKing]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

BendKing wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

The Magus just has some questionable downsides for it's strengths which already have reasonable balance decisions. Spellstrike is balanced by needing to recharge. They only get 4-6 spells per day, so their spellcasting isn't that great (especially when they are behind on proficiency). They also have rather poor class feats, with some particularly questionable choices (why is Raise a Tome two feats just to have a token benefit over normal shield usage?). They're inherently MAD, so they will have less defenses since they can't invest in defensive stats as freely. They also have a much tighter action economy, so aren't as flexible in that regard.

But on top of that, they have less HP and provoke AoO for using their primary feature that is supposed to be used in melee (so, not like an Archer who is punished for bad positioning and can just Step out of AoO range).

Now, Starlit Span gets around this, but that's a rather character-defining option and doesn't help the other subclasses. Reach also helps somewhat, but that drastically limits options when Reach is already stronger for other reasons. It's needlessly punishing for the majority of Magi when the benefits it gets are either already balanced by other elements *or* are incredibly token.

Well said. I would be interested in discussing how to buff the Magus with you if that's something you would find interesting.

Honestly, just a little more durability. 10 base HP and Spellstrike not triggering AoO would go a long way.

Alternatively, some more action economy boosters, but that's less of an issue for the Magus compared to some classes (Melee Investigator).

While I completely agree that these changes are necessary I'm not convinced that it would be enough.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

Here is what I am kind of thinking about for helping Magus.

First, Spellstrike doesn’t trigger AoO. Maybe it still does with expansive? Don’t know. Put that in the magus ability section not Spellstrike though so MCs still trigger it.

Arcane Cascade - Add a line to conflux spells . When you cast a conflux spell you can either recharge spellstrike or enter arcane cascade as a free action. Eases the action economy issues and let’s you open with a focus spell without feeling you wasted it.
Change it to one damage per weapon die. (Do 1-2-3-4 instead of 1-2-3)

Hybrid Studies -
Sustaining Steel gets +1 attack to spellstrikes. Flavor it for whatever reason. It doesn’t get as much benefit as most from 2handing since lots of magus damage is static. Thunderous strike renders targets flat footed on a fail until the start of their turn.
Devastating Spell strike needs something, it is 90% useless now.

Laughing Shadow
Change speed boost to a non-status bonus so it stacks with longstrider. Probably boost it from 5/10 to 10/15 later. I would let you teleport and not strike as part of the regular conflux spell, shouldn’t have to get the lvl 10 version just to not strike.

Sparkling Targe
Don’t really know, have t played it much. I think it really needs a quick shield block type feat that every other primary shield user in the game has! Probably let the minor extra hardness from arcane cascade apply to physical attacks too. It isn’t much.

Twisted Tree -
Actually this one is decent for what it does, with the other changes maybe nothing.

Starlit Span -
It is fine hah. I would like to let arcane cascade do something for it, but it doesn’t need flat damage.

I would probably also add a dangerous sorcery feat or class feature, so magus can get more bang for the buck out of blasts and using attack slotted spells with soellstrike.

[shroudb]

Strongly disagree on the entire premise of this flawed comparisson.

No need to restate my points since the OP simply ignores them either way.

Just once more:

if you want to do "deeps" go fighter.

that hasnt changed because a new class was added.

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

If OP wants to houserule a class to be kings of deeps while also being able to switch in a single day to a much more diverse or even supportive playstyle, be my guest. I wouldnt call that balance though.

[CaffeinatedNinja]

shroudb wrote:

Strongly disagree on the majority of the points made.

No need to restate my points since the OP simply ignores them either way.

Just once more:

if you want to do "deeps" go fighter.

that hasnt changed because a new class was added.

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

With respect, disagreeing is not ignoring.

[shroudb]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Strongly disagree on the majority of the points made.

No need to restate my points since the OP simply ignores them either way.

Just once more:

if you want to do "deeps" go fighter.

that hasnt changed because a new class was added.

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

With respect, disagreeing is not ignoring.

with equal respect, you didnt disagree. You ignored. You didnt answer a single of the main arguments raised, like "what's the whole point of fighter MC magus", because if it's 1/battle bit of extra damage, then a ton other MC on the fighter will do that better to begin with.

Once more:

the premise of the comparison is flawed because you compare the ONE thing the fighter does best way above all other classes (strikes) with tonly a small part of the Magus toolkit.

And you only take a miniscule part of the Magus toolkit and wonder why it doesn't match the fighter's whole thing.

the comparisson is as flawed as saying "magus is king of damage because he can deal with flying enemies at level 7 when the fighter can only plink away at them with his bow" So, in this ONE instance that the magus is better, we surmise that it's the same for all other instances.

[Golurkcanfly]

shroudb wrote:

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

shroudb wrote:

Strongly disagree on the majority of the points made.

No need to restate my points since the OP simply ignores them either way.

Just once more:

if you want to do "deeps" go fighter.

that hasnt changed because a new class was added.

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

With respect, disagreeing is not ignoring.

with equal respect, you didnt disagree. You ignored. You didnt answer a single of the main arguments raised, like "what's the whole point of fighter MC magus", because if it's 1/battle bit of extra damage, then a ton other MC on the fighter will do that better to begin with.

Once more:

the premise of the comparison is flawed because you compare the ONE thing the fighter does best way above all other classes (strikes) with tonly a small part of the Magus toolkit.

And you only take a miniscule part of the Magus toolkit and wonder why it doesn't match the fighter's whole thing.

the comparisson is as flawed as saying "magus is king of damage because he can deal with flying enemies at level 7 when the fighter can only plink away at them with his bow" So, in this ONE instance that the magus is better, we surmise that it's the same for all other instances.

That second comparison is significantly more flawed, since "plinking with the bow" is still incredibly effective.

[Sagiam]

I can't wait for more "Fighter MC (blank) is the superior (blank)" threads. "Fighter MC Summoner is the superior Summoner".

I think comparing the magus to the fighter is comparing apples to oranges. I'd prefer to compare apples to apples; I'd compare it to the swash.

The similarities aren't subtle. Both have a near constant small damage buff (precise strike/arcane cascade), both have a large "nova" strike with a recharge mechanic (Finisher/Spellstrike), and both have a greater focus on combat utility than a Fighter or Barb, but less than a Rogue or Investigator (skills/spells). Really, the magus is basically what you'd get if you stripped away the skill focus from a swash and gave them spells.

So, how does the Magus compare to its cousin, the Swashbuckler?
In a word? Well.
1.The magus's damage buff is functionally constant. You turn on your arcane cascade and that's it. The Swashbuckler has to spend their damage buff in order to use their big strike.
2. Seguing nicely, the Swashbucklers recharge mechanic (gaining Panache) is unreliable, especially at low levels or against boss enemies. The Magus's, comparatively, is guaranteed to work. Only Magus's Analysis has a chance to fail the recharge.
3. The nova strike (the only thing people care about on here)? Not even close. Spellstrike does more damage even with a cantrip, scales way better, and often has better rider effects. The one thing the Finisher has going for it is it's one action, not two, but this is mitigated by the fact that it can be your only attack in the round.

[Captain Morgan]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Fighter is hard to beat early hah (Doesn't even add in that they have AoO)

By the time a fighter can do most of this stuff, the Magus can have AoO too.

Quote:

Shocking Grasp - Differences are minor between it and other spells. It is the best upfront damage, or tied for best lvls 1-3, 5-6. Polar ray is a bit better I think at 7, but the difference is tiny.

Fair enough. There are way less attack spells than I thought.

Quote:

Plus, an enemy worth using your top level spell strike on is almost certainly not dying round one. (Well, I mean it could if everyone crits I suppose, but how often does that happen)

Well, only one of these two will ever have the ability to cast foresight... ;)

Quote:

True Strike - Ooh, this one is hard to calculate hah. Problem is it uses another action which Magus don't really have to spare, and depends on the magus being in position at the start of the turn.

Conveniently, the magus has several ways to quicken itself, so that's not implausible.

Quote:

Fighter can also true strike using their spellstrike to almost the same effect.

Not before level 6 at the earliest, though, and the Magus has more slots to do it with and can access it from a staff much better as well.

Quote:

Conflux Spells - Fighter gets it too from the hybrid study, so it is a wash.

Not before level 8, if they have already spent all their class feats as you've alluded to here, and even then they are stuck with the first level conflux spells while the magus is getting access to Runic Impression, Hasted Assault, or can deal 3d4+3 damage without mess with Force Fang. Our Magus also has other buffs that can be layered in there, like Enlarge.

Keep in mind, you've spent all of your fighter's class feats to get to do Magus stuff, but we've barely touched on the Magus's feats. Fused Staff has interesting potential, especially if you can make a custom staff. Striker's Scroll can give you more powerful strike slots in a pinch. Devastating Spellstrike adds a bit of AoE.

Or multiclass into sorcerer for Dangerous Sorcery and Bespell weapon (the latter of which is tricky to tie into a spell strike, but not impossible if you're True Striking or whatever.)

[Sagiam]

CaffeinatedNinja wrote:

Removing Enemies Early - Absolutely true! However two things. The fighter starts off with a spellstrike too, and it is almost as big (maybe 10% difference?) as the magus. Plus, an enemy worth using your top level spell strike on is almost certainly not dying round one. (Well, I mean it could if everyone crits I suppose, but how often does that happen)

So one thing I see brought up a lot is how a Fighters 2 attacks does more average damage than a Magus's cantrip spellstrike. What I do not see brought up is the fact that if a Magus crits with their strike they crit with both the weapon and the spell. Now, I don't know the math on this, but I know enough to know that critting with one attack is way more likely then critting twice in a row. Especially once you start stacking flat-footed, true strike, etc.

It doesn't matter if the fighter does more damage over two, three, or ten rounds, if the target is dead.

[Squiggit]

shroudb wrote:

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

Isn't that kind of a schrodinger's magus situation, though?

The magus who prepares a bunch of shocking grasps because they want to nova doesn't really have most of the tools you're talking about because they've already dedicated their slots to something else.

[graystone]

Squiggit wrote:

shroudb wrote:

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

Isn't that kind of a schrodinger's magus situation, though?

The magus who prepares a bunch of shocking grasps because they want to nova doesn't really have most of the tools you're talking about because they've already dedicated their slots to something else.

I guess that's what a wand, staff and a barrel full of scrolls are for. Just tell the monster to wait while I try to recall where I put them all... :P

[shroudb]

Squiggit wrote:

shroudb wrote:

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

Isn't that kind of a schrodinger's magus situation, though?

The magus who prepares a bunch of shocking grasps because they want to nova doesn't really have most of the tools you're talking about because they've already dedicated their slots to something else.

Yes and no.

I prefer to see it as class flexibility myself:

obviously you never have everything ready at each particular time. But being a prepared caster means that you can change your selection daily.

So if you are going somewhere that you think you need more damage, you prepare more blasts. If you go somewhere where you expect fliers, you prepare fly, if you go somewhere that it's not tight cramped spaces, you prepare haste, since you will have the extra rounds to pre-buff, and etc.

Scrolls and staffs are tools that help expanding your field of "being better prepared". Staves especially, since magus is the best class to use them without sacrificing any damage at all, are literally bonus spells/options added in your arsenal.

---

As far as personal preferences:
Unlike the previous edition where magus was the king of nova damage, I don't think that's true here. So i personally don't like that approach as my prepped spells.

In this edition I think magus is more closely to what a gish was in older editions: A martial that has traded some of his martial prowess for the flexibility of spells.
Gishes usually shine when they have the time to prepare themselves. Be it in a combat where they can buff before going fully in, or in general where they have the time to preppare the exact tool neeeded for the job.

Their spellstrike will always be there as a reliable tool to do damage in a pinch, but spending your few spellslots to increase that damage by like average 10-15 (when mosnters have 130+ HP) is not something I'm keen on. Instead having a spell that can get me there to do a full attack which will do more, or dropping the enemy to the ground alongside my attack for the whole party to wail upon, or giving me sustain to stay in the thick of it more rounds, thus more overall damage, or the utility to actually reach the enemy, and etc, are all better tools to use.

---

Having 1 spellstrike per combat and no spells, by no stretch of definition does make a fighter a "better magus". Since that 1 spellstrike is NOT what magus can do.

---

As for the magus who just wants to shocking grasp people, he can still do it and be "ok" as a striker. Is it optimal? probably not, but so what? A wizard prepparing all of his slots with fireballs is also not optimqal, you dont see threads saying "Sorcerer is a better Wizard if the wizard only wants to fill his slots with 1 spell".

That's literally the comparison here:
You take 1 class that can do only 1 thing (strike) and a class that can do multiple different things (spells) and say: "well, if the class that can do multiple things is forced to only use 1 thing, then the class that has been build around doing 1 thing is better"
well... duh?

graystone wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

shroudb wrote:

the new class does decent "deeps", more than enough to cover his role, and has extremely wider tools than the fighter (whose only tool is "but deeps!")

Isn't that kind of a schrodinger's magus situation, though?

The magus who prepares a bunch of shocking grasps because they want to nova doesn't really have most of the tools you're talking about because they've already dedicated their slots to something else.

I guess that's what a wand, staff and a barrel full of scrolls are for. Just tell the monster to wait while I try to recall where I put them all... :P

you silly you. Papa paizo has that covered: "I wear them" (for scrolls). No need to recall "where" you wear them ^^.

As for the staff, since you are a Magus, you just hold it I guess, be that a fused staff if you are not a staff magus, or a normal staff if you are a staff magus!

[Temperans]

Hmm, "getting you there" something like Sudden Charge letting you move twice your distance and then do 2 attacks? Without costing you any spells.

Preparing buffs to cast before combat? You mean using one of your 4 spells per day before every fight, that last 1 minute most of them? Most of which get supplanted by a parties' dedicated caster?

Tripping enemies reliably along with an attack for the rest of the party? Sounds almost like Fighter's Knockdown, a feat that does just that.

Full casters in PF2 are known to suffer relevancy issues if they can't manage their spells. PF2 Magus has the second least spells of any caster (only Summoners have less by default). Yet you are talking about versatility? With what spells? You cast 4 (6 with studious spell) and you are done. No more utility outside your focus spells which are easy for other classes to get.

*******************
People are saying "oh Ranged Magus is not that bad". But guess what, an Eldritch Archer Fighter does largely the same things, without any of the Magus penalties and getting more spells. This is what makes the recharge mechanic so stupid. Eldritch Archer Fighter gets more spells and somewhat easier to use abilities, while being able to constantly "spellstrike".

A Magus, even if they go Eldritch Archer aswell wouldn't really do better than the Fighter. Yeah they would have 9th and 10th lv spells for "pseudo full caster", but their versatility remains the same as the Fighter's, and their damage continues to be a 4x per day thing.

*******************
* P.S. I am one of the people who love the magus who is able to be versatile and do great stuff with utility spells. I complain because paizo decided that getting 4 top level spells for more nova was more important than getting more versatility. I complain because even when paizo made them more nova, they gave magus a ton of restrictions and limitations without actually giving the magus more damage.

So it ended up with magus not being able to fulfill its fantasy, and any other martial with a caster dedication being able to easily do it instead. Ex: A Trickster Rogue has lv1 access to Eldritch Archer, while keeping Sneak Attack. Yeah no starlit eye or meteoric spellstrike, but they get access to all the Rogue Traits and considerably more skill feats.

The fact the Magus even on best case does not even compare to Trickster Rogue...

[shroudb]

Temperans wrote:

Hmm, "getting you there" something like Sudden Charge letting you move twice your distance and then do 2 attacks? Without costing you any spells.

Preparing buffs to cast before combat? You mean using one of your 4 spells per day before every fight, that last 1 minute most of them? Most of which get supplanted by a parties' dedicated caster?

Tripping enemies reliably along with an attack for the rest of the party? Sounds almost like Fighter's Knockdown, a feat that does just that.

Full casters in PF2 are known to suffer relevancy issues if they can't manage their spells. PF2 Magus has the second least spells of any caster (only Summoners have less by default). Yet you are talking about versatility? With what spells? You cast 4 (6 with studious spell) and you are done. No more utility outside your focus spells which are easy for other classes to get.

*******************
People are saying "oh Ranged Magus is not that bad". But guess what, an Eldritch Archer Fighter does largely the same things, without any of the Magus penalties and getting more spells. This is what makes the recharge mechanic so stupid. Eldritch Archer Fighter gets more spells and somewhat easier to use abilities, while being able to constantly "spellstrike".

A Magus, even if they go Eldritch Archer aswell wouldn't really do better than the Fighter. Yeah they would have 9th and 10th lv spells for "pseudo full caster", but their versatility remains the same as the Fighter's, and their damage continues to be a 4x per day thing.

*******************
* P.S. I am one of the people who love the magus who is able to be versatile and do great stuff with utility spells. I complain because paizo decided that getting 4 top level spells for more nova was more important than getting more versatility. I complain because even when paizo made them more nova, they gave magus a ton of restrictions and limitations without actually giving the magus more damage.

So it ended up with magus not being able to fulfill its fantasy, and any other...

you dont have 4 spells. You have 6 spells + whatever you get from your staff (around 2-4 more low level ones).

Since your "4 spells" do not need to be pure blasts, and you have your studious+staff for support, then yeah, i find 4 spells to be "ok" for versatility.

As for the fighter having a dedicated babysitter on his back to buff him up... just lol.

if you count a dedicated "support" to buff up your fighter, i can also count the exact dedicated support to doubly buff the magus.

As for mobility, sure, if the enemy is on the ground, and there is a clear path without obstacles, and he isnt in the backline that you have to take AoOs to reach him... then yes, striding is equal to teleporting/flying.

On the other hand, if the enemy is on a hill, flying, hidden, invisible, whatever.. the fighter does 0 damage. While the magus has plenty of options to his ansenal to deal with him. See invis is on a divination staff so the majority of magus have access to it (and if they dont have divination staff and have something like evocation, Glitterdust is in that), spiderclimb is a pretty great spell off studious if you are in a mountainous area or inside a cave or something, Fly allows you a full combat of dealing with flying enemies with just 1 spellslot if you expect those, and etc.

tripping was an example. But sure, if the fighter only wants to do a single strike per round to trip a single enemy, that's ok, nothing fancy. How about every other debuff that the magus can instead apply though? Apart from single target maneuvers and demorilize, the fighter has nothing.

---

I am sorry you dont like the Magus as it is in pf2, I personally love him. And balance wise, I see him standing on equal grounds with the majority of the classes.

[Deriven Firelion]

Seems cool a straight Magus or a Fighter Magus MC are viable.

[WWHsmackdown]

I see a lot of discussion of other classes MCing to ape...... a straight class magus. If dedications are in the mix then go ahead and throw wizard or witch on the magus for sake of fair comparison. Now your magus is a martial as well as a full caster. There's no contest as to which I would prefer between a fighter mc magus and a magus MC wizard/witch. I'ma go for the actual gish.

[Jokey the Unfunny Comedian]

Man, it sure is nice that a Fighter multi classing into Magus gets eternally regenerating temporary hit points, or the ability to block magical damage with their shield, or the ability to spellstrike with a ranged weapon.

[Temperans]

All you need is 1 feat into Eldritch Archer to get infinite Spellstrike with ranged weapons. So yeah...

Also maybe you missed where nobody says a Fighter MC Magus gets everything a Magus has. Just that they are much better at fulfilling the Magus' fantasy of "hit hard with sword and magic".

[Ventnor]

Okay, then let's do a quick damage comparison of a Starlit Span Magus using spellstrike with Fireball vs. an Eldritch Archer Fighter using Eldritch Shot with Fireball.

[shroudb]

Temperans wrote:

Just that they are much better at fulfilling the Magus' fantasy of "hit hard with sword and magic".

Not really though.

In fact, they say the opposite. That they only do 1 spellstrike per combat and then proceed to do normal mundane strikes.

That doesnt seem like "hit hard with sword and magic" but rather "hit hard with sword".

[Malk_Content]

Temperans wrote:

All you need is 1 feat into Eldritch Archer to get infinite Spellstrike with ranged weapons. So yeah...

Also maybe you missed where nobody says a Fighter MC Magus gets everything a Magus has. Just that they are much better at fulfilling the Magus' fantasy of "hit hard with sword and magic".

At 3 actions with a single cantrip rather than 2 actions.

[Temperans]

Malk_Content wrote:

Temperans wrote:

All you need is 1 feat into Eldritch Archer to get infinite Spellstrike with ranged weapons. So yeah...

Also maybe you missed where nobody says a Fighter MC Magus gets everything a Magus has. Just that they are much better at fulfilling the Magus' fantasy of "hit hard with sword and magic".

At 3 actions with a single cantrip rather than 2 actions.

Are you talking about Magus Spellstrike using 2 actions? Because that is always 3 actions. It doesn't have to be in the same turn. But it is still 3 actions.

[Captain Morgan]

Temperans wrote:

Malk_Content wrote:

Temperans wrote:

All you need is 1 feat into Eldritch Archer to get infinite Spellstrike with ranged weapons. So yeah...

Also maybe you missed where nobody says a Fighter MC Magus gets everything a Magus has. Just that they are much better at fulfilling the Magus' fantasy of "hit hard with sword and magic".

At 3 actions with a single cantrip rather than 2 actions.

Are you talking about Magus Spellstrike using 2 actions? Because that is always 3 actions. It doesn't have to be in the same turn. But it is still 3 actions.

Magus spell strike is 2 actions. It can be an action to recharge, but given there are numerous ways to dovetail that with another action, like a conflux spell, it isn't a super meaningful distinction.

[HumbleGamer]

Not to say it's way, way, way better 2+1 rather than 3.

I stride, recharge and strike.
I spellstrike and stride.
I I recharge and spellstrike.

vs

I can't use my eldritch shot if I move, unless I am quickened.

[Malk_Content]

And, I have to wait until lvl 6 to do this with one single cantrip as my spellstrike option. TOTALLY on par with a Magus. Oh I think this was already brought up with Temperans last time the Magus and Eldritch Archer was compared.

[HumbleGamer]

I mean, the eldritch archer is EXCELLENT for what it gives.

But I see it as an alternative rather than something meant battle with a magus.

As a combatant, with a single lvl 6 archetype feat I may be able to use unlimited eldritch shots per combat, but with some limits:

- 1 cantrip ( telekinetic Projektile everybody )
- 3 actions to shot

A magus is way more versatile, and I wouldn't stick on damage comparison.

[Malk_Content]

HumbleGamer wrote:

I mean, the eldritch archer is EXCELLENT for what it gives.

But I see it as an alternative rather than something meant battle with a magus.

As a combatant, with a single lvl 6 archetype feat I may be able to use unlimited eldritch shots per combat, but with some limits:

- 1 cantrip ( telekinetic Projektile everybody )
- 3 actions to shot

A magus is way more versatile, and I wouldn't stick on damage comparison.

Oh yeah I love Eldritch Archer. Just this isn't the first time Temperans has made it seem like it's on par with what a Magus is doing for a single feat.