| Karmagator |
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just a quick word before we get into this - I usually exclusively play martial characters in 2e, though I have decent knowledge of how to play a full caster. I just don't like being able to run out of the thing you do, even if that isn't a big problem at higher levels. That said, the flavour and non-spell slot parts of the psychic really speak to me - not that I'm saying no to those spell slots, mind you ^^
-
Initial Proficiencies + later weapon/armour progression
Not really anything to talk about here. Squishy caster does squishy caster stuff. No expert in perception is 100% an unintended mistake.
Save progression
Expert reflex (5th) and fortitude (9th). Will master at a somewhat reasonable level (11th) and legendary at 17th, both with the usual upgrades. I really appreciate this class not being totally robbed in this department like many other casters.
-
Psychic Spellcasting and Spell Repertoire
Most of this is standard spontaneous caster stuff. Just like a sorcerer you can replace material with somatic components, but the replaced components look different. No actual mechanical change, but nice flavour.
The two big ticket items here are the max 2 spells per spell level and the accordingly massively reduced number of spells known. So, realistically, at the end of the day the rest of the class has to make up for 18 spell slots and 18 fewer spells known right out of the gate. That's a tall order, even though it only has to do so gradually until level 18 - the others don't get all those spell slots and spell immediately after all.
Subconscious Mind
The feature that determines our key ability and what we do about those pesky verbal components with cool flavour. That you can replace material components with somatic ones is repeated for no reason (that should be fixed).
Verbal component substitution is weird or at least phrased in a way that is easily misunderstood.
The only audible parts of Cast a Spell is the verbal component, and after you have finished casting, the spell manifestation. Lightning bolts are kinda loud. The part "Your spells still have clear and noticeable visual and auditory manifestations as normal for a spellcaster." in your spellcasting feature can easily be misunderstood as saying "while you cast a spell there is all sorts of noise going on". That in actual fact your Cast a Spell is completely silent before the actual spell manifestation should be explicitly stated.
But what are the actual effect of what replacing your verbal component accomplishes? Both emotion and calculation components still add the concentrate trait, so that doesn't change. Your spells still have the usual clear and visible signs of spellcasting, so it does little to nothing for stealthy casting. There are some situations where I can see this making a difference - e.g. casting on a blind opponent - but it is very, very situational. The other benefit is that you can cast when affected by silence or any other effect that disallows verbal components, but let's be real here - how often does this happen to you? From my experience, basically never unless the source is your own party. And I don't think you abusing the heightened silence spell is the actual goal here.
And then there is the downside as well.
Emotional Acceptance's penalty is pretty significant (cantrips heighten one lower). It also triggers whenever you are under a harmful emotion effect - so most commonly by abilities that apply frightened. Which is way, way too frequently for that significant of a penalty, especially when you get into Frightful Presence territory at higher levels. Good luck with getting out of a 90ft emanation that "ruins" your main casting options for 1-2 rounds at minimum :P. No wonder you get legendary in will saves with that amount of training :D
Precise Discipline is much more modest by comparison, flat-footed to reactions while Casting a Spell and stupefied if disrupted. It's still a significant downside, especially at higher levels where disruption on hit is not exactly uncommon. But I like this one.
The main difference here is that Emotional Acceptance is basically "let's hope I make the will save", i.e. you have basically no control or opportunity to actively mitigate how boned you are. Precise Discipline, in contrast, offers such opportunities, which makes it infinitely more manageable and interesting.
All in all, you get a significant downside for an at best fringe upside. I love the flavour and idea behind it, don't get me wrong. But Emotional Acceptance has a heavy penalty that triggers very frequently and without meaningful options for counter-play. That one just doesn't work at all. The downside for Precise Discipline is absolutely fine, but an omnipresent downside needs an (about) equally omnipresent and significant upside.
Psi Cantrips and Amps
Amps are a thing, you get 2 focus points and get both back from refocus. Neat, necessary and easily understood. Good job. The one thing I would say about this part is that the "you only get 1 if you used something other than an amp" part needlessly complicates things. It should be cut entirely without breaking anything in the slightest.
Concious Mind and some related feats
The class paths now. Everything gives some neat spells like a Bloodline and has great flavour, so far so good. Every path granting 3 things automatically is a good idea as well.
- Distant Grasp -
Mage Hand amp is.... extremely situational and even in that specific situation it provides very little benefit. I certainly can't think of a situation I've played that this would have made a difference in. And something so "expensive" (remember, 18 fewer spell slots) and mandatory can't be this situational. This desperately needs some heightened X with additional/different effects. These could absolutely be situational (if maybe not as situational as the original), but need to provide substantial benefits in those situations.
Telekinetic Projectile amp is semi-decent, if boring, and has the usual attack spell problem. And, you know, crit effects on spell attack rolls.... . This needs to do more at higher levels and on a success.
Enough has been said about Telekinetic Rend. Interesting idea, but useless at heightened +2. It would be pretty spicy at heightened +1 with the same damage, but I can see that working out.
Arrest Trajectory. +1 circumstance bonus (+2 at 13th level) to AC for anyone within 30 ft, but only against physical ranged Strikes. That +1 is really often already redundant due to cover. Also, hello Reactive Shield in disguise, what are you doing here 7 levels higher? Yeah, Reactive Shield provides a higher bonus, works against melee attacks as well and is a level 1 feat. Maybe the amp pulls this one out of the hole? For the cost of a focus point and an action next turn you can cast a basic telekinetic projectile. Again, cool idea, but this is just a weaker combination of Deflect Arrow & Arrow Snatching. Needs to be better or it isn't worth the feat slot.
Autonomic Telekinesis. Am I missing something here? This is one of the weaker 5th level ancestry feats... as a 10th level class feat. If it had a significantly higher range and fewer limitations, it would be really, really cool. I hope something gets done with this, because this has a lot of potential. As it stands, this feat is 9 levels higher than it deserves.
- Infinite Eye -
Detect Magic amp. Now this is more like it. Good bonuses, great flavour and scales like it should. I would like to point out, though, that currently you can just activate this and get the bonuses by not ignoring your own items/magic or that of your allies. I doubt this is intended.
Guidance amp. Pretty damn nice, there are a lot of saves you really don't want to critically fail. But I would still like to see some "heightened X" options here as well. Not absolutely vital like with a lot of the others, but I would like to see more out of a focus spell once we get to spell level 5+.
Mental Scan. The base cantrip is great. A Seek and an Aid that you can only help with as 1 action. Granted you still need to spend your reaction to actually Aid, but this class isn't exactly heavy on your reaction economy. The amp is just as great, if not even better. This could easily go into the final product as-is, no changes needed.
Future Path. This is the exact opposite. It triggers reactions on the initial casting of the cantrip to provide the benefit of a 2nd level feat - Mobility. Or your could just Step and then Stride to get the same result 90+% of the time. For alternate speeds, who can't Step, Mobility is still waaaay better and honestly less expensive, even with having to pick up the rogue dedication. The amps are in the same category. At 15th (!) level your team is better off with one person spending one, maybe two actions (again, Step is a thing) rather than 3 total.
- Silent Whisper -
Daze amp. I'm sorry, but this is easily the worst of the lot. Daze is already a questionable choice to spend actions on, outside of very specific situations. The additional damage is fairly negligible even at level 1 and things just get worse from there. The only good thing about this is -1 status penalty to will saves. But for that you can get Bon Mot - you have a better chance at success, with much greater effects and it only costs one action. This is literally never worth using.
Message amp. I can easily see this being useful - one action and focus point for your allies' reaction to Stride/Step. And the 4th level one is just really good. Normally I would say the investment is too high - just one action for a reaction is plenty - but with the psychic being able to just use a focus point each round ,this is just fine.
Nudge Intent. This one is pretty good against certain enemies. Specifically spellcasters (choose skill action) and monsters that can't reach your allies from their position. It is too bad that you can't specify what specific action they have to do, though I can see why you can't ^^. Having the massive beastie requesting food with "Request" or thinking real hard on what you are (Recall Knowledge) would be really funny. Still, for two actions, I would like to see a little something more in case the enemy pursues the specified action. There are just too many big melee monsters that really don't care if they trip you first and then stomp you into the ground or the other way around. The amp definitely should be better at later levels as well.
Shatter Mind. Base effect is ok-ish, heightened +2 is really problematic as always. The amp is kinda meh. If you don't fight against masses of enemy spellcasters, this isn't particularly good. The only reason why I would even consider using it is the fact that it only targets enemies and even then it is a though choice. On a side-note, why can you designate a 30 or 60ft cone if it only hits enemies?
Unleash Psyche
I love this. Two rounds of spending focus points and then going ham for 3 rounds at round 3. In my experience the overwhelming majority of fights only last 3 or 4 rounds, so that is plenty.
The "no other focus spells, only psi focus cantrips" restriction once again is unnecessary. I can't see a thematic need for it and if the free amp on any of your psi cantrips isn't enough to make you want to use it, then we have a completely different problem.
There is also the fact that you can only Unleash once per Refocus. That isn't too bad, but is there an actual need for it? Having to wait for a minute like Rage seems to perfectly satisfy the thematic requirements without really screwing the psychic on back-to back encounters. Those aren't too frequent, so it isn't a huge deal, but it is something to think about.
The only part I really disagree with here is the basic Unleash you get, but I made a thread about this already.
-
- TL:DR - (I really understand XD)
I love the flavour and I love the basic mechanics. They just work great, seem fun and are also easily understood/remembered. If the power level was adjusted way up to a proper level (remember this comes at the cost of 18 spell slots and the same number of spells known), then this would easily be a fun class for me. The vast majority of my problems really are just a lack of bigger numbers, which is easily fixed. Though I challenge you to fix daze :P
| Xenocrat |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The only thing I disagree with in the OP here is that there is a good reason to restrict use of your two focus points or free focus during unleashed psyche on things other than amps - you can otherwise acquire some very powerful focus spells (Lay on Hands?) via multiclass and use them more than intended at very little cost. Tossing out five Lay on Hands in a battle and then refocusing for two full focus points is not something they want to allow.
| Cyder |
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Agree with the OP on pretty much everything said here.
Negatives for the sake of flavour with very niche or no upsides is not something I want to see more of. This class is loaded with universal negatives for short term situational bonuses (some better than others).
I love flavour that links equal benefits with penalties but that is not what is happening here. The potential to stack negatives is even worse. Calculated components with unleashed psyche is a -4 AC against attacks of opportunity - on a low HP low AC class at level 1.
| Verdyn |
To elaborate, as to why I'm so non-plussed at Paizo's need to keep everything well below a certain threshold of power.
I'm used to broken being reading the rules and discovering that you can drown yourself to set your HP back to 0 after driving it trillions of points into the negatives to fuel and nigh infinitely high skill check. Or a series of actions in D&D 4e that could lead to an infinite loop. Or even a 2e mage getting some Gauntlets of Ogre Power and being a 7 HP mage who can one punch most professional soldiers through their armor.
A character being able to heal a little more often than is currently possible isn't just tame, it's expected. New material should lead to possibilities that wind up some bit better and more interesting than what could be done before it was released. Power creep isn't a bad thing.
| graystone |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Verdyn wrote:Combat.Xenocrat wrote:Tossing out five Lay on Hands in a battle and then refocusing for two full focus points is not something they want to allow.What does that ultimately end up breaking?
Is it that different from a Forensic Medicine investigator with the Medic archetype? If you need to lay on hands the same character 5 times in a row, the problem isn't with lay on hands.
Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:I guess it depends on if you're happy with the current level of power in the game or if you'd like it to be higher.Verdyn wrote:Power creep isn't a bad thing.I strongly disagree.
For me, it has to do with liking that the game is generally balanced and not wishing the system to crumple just because "I wanna feel more powerful". Power creep destroys game balance. Just look at PF1, balancing encounters is neigh impossible.
Also, nothing is stopping home game groups from bumping up the power level.
| Karmagator |
Actually, Psychics do have 3 spells per level known like bards and oracles. 1 spell at each level in their repertoire is picked for them by their choice of subconscious mind.
I messed up there for a different reason. I used the sorcerer as the comparison point, as it is the closest "normal" full caster equivalent - spontaneous, 6hp, unarmoured & only simple weapons. However, I forgot - again - that the bloodline spells are one of the 4 spells know per spell level, not in addition top that. So it actually is 9 fewer spells known.
I didn't use the oracle or bard, because their additional proficiencies and other moving parts really muddy the waters too much to make a meaningful comparison of pure spellcasting features.
| YuriP |
Even bloodline spells locking 1 know spell per level I think that we can count him too (just like we are counting psi cantrips as total cantrips) because you still can choose your bloodline based in these spells too and you don't need to learn them once they are automatically in your repertory and your still have the 4 spellslot free to you use at will it isn't like wizard school spells that locks a spellslot to exclusive use.
So I still think that there are 18 fewer spells know.
| Dubious Scholar |
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
One thing I want to repeat - Heightened +2 does not work on blasting spells. They really, really need the damage scaling to keep up on even spell levels.
Also, Heightened +2 on a cantrip means it caps out at level 9, which hurts them significantly at level cap compared to anything with +1, since even if the scaling keeps up that's an extra step they never get.
| Paradozen |
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Guidance amp. Pretty damn nice, there are a lot of saves you really don't want to critically fail. But I would still like to see some "heightened X" options here as well. Not absolutely vital like with a lot of the others, but I would like to see more out of a focus spell once we get to spell level 5+.
I don't quite agree with this. The effect itself is pretty damn nice but in the context of guidance it's underwhelming. The target can only benefit 1/hour, the spell is cast before you know if the target will need to make a saving throw or use an action with really debilitating crit fails, and the amp won't apply to most rolls anyways since crit fails are relatively rare. It might not matter because the 1 round of the hour you gave it to the target they didn't need to do anything with a bad crit fail effect, it might not matter because the 1 check of the hour they decided to use the bonus on wasn't a crit fail. The latter will be the majority of rolls even in particularly bad situations. When it comes up (on something with important critical fail results) it's amazing, but it almost never comes up. In the meanwhile, it always costs resources (focus point or free psyche unleashed amp for the round). It feels super underwhelming to me.
| vagrant-poet |
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
Corwin Icewolf wrote:Leomund "Leo" Velinznrarikovich wrote:I guess it depends on if you're happy with the current level of power in the game or if you'd like it to be higher.Verdyn wrote:Power creep isn't a bad thing.I strongly disagree.For me, it has to do with liking that the game is generally balanced and not wishing the system to crumple just because "I wanna feel more powerful". Power creep destroys game balance. Just look at PF1, balancing encounters is neigh impossible.
Also, nothing is stopping home game groups from bumping up the power level.
The absolutely hilarious thing is, you can bump power level of PCs more predictably in PF2e anyway. Just be a level up. Either run an AP at 1 level above expectations, or build encounters as if the players were one level lower.
And very predictably you will get a game were the PCs beat checks, and can take multiple fights more easily, and so on. You just have to be honest that that is what you want.