Advanced Elemental Spell and Order Explorer


Rules Discussion

Scarab Sages

Advanced Elemental Spell says “you gain the advanced order spell associated with your order”. What if you have Order Explorer and belong to two elemental orders? Pick one? Gain both? Gain the one from your initial order?


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Ruled as Written... you gain the focus spell that corresponds to your order, so if you have 2 or all of them, you gain the two or all of them respectively.


Spell is singular; you get only one, which I'd say you pick.

Scarab Sages

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Order Explorer says “you are now a member of that order for the purpose of meeting feat prerequisites…. You don’t gain any of the other benefits of the order you chose.” That would seem to imply that you can use the new order as a prerequisite for AES and take the new spell. Hero Lab’s current behavior is an example of that; it lets you take AES once for each order you are in.

The argument against that is that is exactly how Order Magic functions, but the wording is completely different. Order Magic even includes this: “Special You can take this feat multiple times. Each time you do, you must choose a different order you have selected with Order Explorer.” Without that wording, I didn’t think you could take a feat more than once.

Grand Archive

SoM wrote:
Your connection to one of the great elemental aspects of nature deepens, allowing you further control over its powers. You gain the advanced order spell associated with your order: if you're a member of the flame order, you gain combustion; if you're a member of the stone order, you gain stone lance ; if you're a member of the storm order, you gain powerful inhalation; if you're a member of the wave order, you gain pulverizing cascade. Increase the number of Focus Points in your focus pool by 1.

The feat is full of "if/then" statements. Plus, it does not have the same text about being able to retake the feat multiple times.

If you qualify as being in X order, you gain x focus spell.

That said, there is a lesser argument in the beginning flavor text about "one".

So I think, at the end of the day, this is very much up to your GM.


In Order Explorer it says that you are a member of the new order 'for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites'.

Order Magic specifically ties into an order that you gain via Order Explorer. It also says that you pick one order to apply the feat to if you happen to have more than one that you have explored into.

Advanced Elemental Spell lists several order options as prerequisites. So I would say that whichever order from Order Explorer that you pick to use as the prerequisite for taking the feat is the order that the feat applies to and that will be the 'your order' that the feat references.

Which is a lot of words to say that I agree with Castilliano.

Liberty's Edge

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I thought so at first, but the wording of Advanced Elemental Spell is really different and it seems that as long as conditions are met, the relevant benefits are gained. So, several orders equal several spells.

Also, since it cannot be taken several times, that would prevent an Order Explorer Druid from gaining a benefit of having several orders, which feels at odd with Order Explorer's philosophy.

Vigilant Seal

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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Its singular imo. Many classes have feats that grant a focus spel. You consistently see, 1 feat:1 focus spell.

Although, i think a couple classes start with 2 focus spells like witch, but those come from separate class features not a single feat.


The Raven Black wrote:

I thought so at first, but the wording of Advanced Elemental Spell is really different and it seems that as long as conditions are met, the relevant benefits are gained. So, several orders equal several spells.

Also, since it cannot be taken several times, that would prevent an Order Explorer Druid from gaining a benefit of having several orders, which feels at odd with Order Explorer's philosophy.

Advanced Order Magic also says specifically

Quote:
Your connection to one of the great elemental aspects of nature deepens, allowing you further control over its powers.

My emphasis. Pretty clear that you get one spell from one order.


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breithauptclan wrote:

In Order Explorer it says that you are a member of the new order 'for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites'.

Order Magic specifically ties into an order that you gain via Order Explorer. It also says that you pick one order to apply the feat to if you happen to have more than one that you have explored into.

Advanced Elemental Spell lists several order options as prerequisites. So I would say that whichever order from Order Explorer that you pick to use as the prerequisite for taking the feat is the order that the feat applies to and that will be the 'your order' that the feat references.

Which is a lot of words to say that I agree with Castilliano.

Strongly disagree. You are getting far too carried away with how you read some words and not others.

Order Explorer clearly says 'for purposes of meeting feat prerequisites' which is exactly what the feat Advanced Elemental Spell requires. That is a very direct enabling of Advanced Elemental Spell. Clearly this works. This part is not open to reasonable debate.

Yes Advanced Elemental Spell is written in the singular:
Your connection to one of the great elemental aspects of nature deepens, allowing you further control over its powers.

But the enabling text clearly allows for multiples. Each one is individually mentioned.
You gain the advanced order spell associated with your order:
if you're a member of the flame order, you gain combustion;
if you're a member of the stone order, you gain stone lance;
if you're a member of the storm order, you gain powerful inhalation;
if you're a member of the wave order, you gain pulverizing cascade.

That is not exclusive language. Each is enabled individually.

If they meant only one they should have said it. They didn't. Allowing a singular rule to be applied multiple times for every instance it is appropriate is not a stretch, or a new interpretation. This is not taking the same feat twice.

Does it really matter?
1) Yes because Order Explorer is the heart of the Druid class - it is what they do join multiple orders.
2) No in balance terms because you are using the same focus pool and that is the real limit to these powers. Also a lot of these focus spells overlap. In practise you really probably are only after one of these spells, a second is a minor bonus. Lets not forget these focus spell(s) have cost you two feats.
3) Yes, the ruling proposed that you are locked into your initial order is hardly fair to animal/leaf/wild druids who can't get a spell here if you do it that way.

The fact that many orders don't have an advanced focus spells is probably why there is this individual order wording.

Order Magic is a lower level feat than Advanced Elemental Spell. It is quite appropriate for the higher level feat to have wider effects. The writers are clearly aware of it. If they had wanted to reuse the wording Choose an order they would have.

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