So, I really want to like the Kineticist, but...

[Carrauntoohil]

zza ni wrote:

you want to daka daka and buff and heal and use all marital weapons and armor (and disable magic traps with the right obedience) then you need to be a Calamity Caller like everyone else.

Elf though... *shrugs*

That said, absolute quality post :D

[Doompatrol]

Melkiador wrote:

For the kinetic knight, locking them down in melee means you are keeping them off your ranged party members. Archetype designed for tanking can actually tank.

Maybe that's the disconnect here. Kinetic Knight does have some attack alternate abilities, but those are mostly just allowing for the knight esthetic. On the other hand, Kinetic Knight has a lot of defensive abilities added. If you're looking for a melee striker, that's not exactly what it is. It's more of a tank than anything else.

At least you've somewhat admitted it's not as good as it's role of being the melee kineticist and if by tank you mean stand in the way, either version can do that, but standing in the way is an option, not a role, the normal kineticist can protect the other ranged party members well enough by entangling and not putting itself in harms way, but if it must also do that, it also has that option, unlike the Knight who must always put themselves in harms way to entangle.

My Kineticist was tough already, really good AC, dex highest stat, buckler, further bonuses to my dex from overflow and the aether shield.

But to tank as a role, neither is good at that since they cannot reliably make attacks of opportunity until they can kinetic whip with no burn at 8.

[Melkiador]

You don't need just attacks of opportunity to tank, though that will eventually be part of it. Iterative attacks using entangling and similar control infusions will keep enemies locked down well enough. And it's fine as a "melee kineticist". It's just not as much of a "melee striker". Those are different things. Your kineticist is tough, but could it roll its fortitude and will saves twice and take the better result? Could it rock combat maneuvers without needing to burn a feat on combat expertise?

[Temperans]

Kinetic Knight having full attack for free also means that they can use high cost infusions easier without having to Gather Power as often. Gather Power being relegated to when you want some of the other abilities.

Ride the Blast is fun and all, but having Pounce is much more useful. Not to mention that you rarely need Ride the Blast. Charging however? That is very useful. Also you discount free infusions. But many normal Kineticist would spend feats on more infusions. Something a Kinetic Knight straight up doesn't need.

Did I mention that Samurai Resolve gives access to the wonderful feat: Unconquerable Resolve? This wonderful feat that you can take multiple times gives you your HD in temp HP for each time you took the feat, every resolve point spent. That's right, when you spend a point to avoid a spell you also get HP to mitigate any damage that might still pass through. Effectively countering burn damage. (Taking the feat twice with 2 resolve points is 40 HP a day no questions asked).

There really is no comparing the tankiness of Regular vs Knight.

[Belafon]

Temperans wrote:

Did I mention that Samurai Resolve gives access to the wonderful feat: Unconquerable Resolve? This wonderful feat that you can take multiple times gives you your HD in temp HP for each time you took the feat, every resolve point spent. That's right, when you spend a point to avoid a spell you also get HP to mitigate any damage that might still pass through. Effectively countering burn damage. (Taking the feat twice with 2 resolve points is 40 HP a day no questions asked).

I’m not entirely sure what you mean by “countering burn damage.” You still take the nonlethal damage from burn.

As an aside, there is a developer clarification that the temporary HP from Unconquerable Resolve only last 1 minute.

[Temperans]

Knight get up to 9 uses of resolve. Each use grants HD * # of feat for a combat. At 20th lv you get 9*20*# of feats. 180 temp HP/feat. Burn is HD * burn points and you get 3+Con mod uses. Assuming +8 mod, that is 11*20 for a fully burnt Kineticist.

With 2 feats you can go from effectively -220 HP to effectively +140 HP. The fact it's only for 1 minute does mean much as it an ability meant to be used in combat or when you would suffer some effect. Aka you were already going to take damage, now you take much less.

Think of it as getting 9 Toughness feats you can only use during combat.

Edit: P.S. You would likely get 10 resolve due to 1 level dip into Samurai for pre-reqs. But that's hardly a problem as that gives plenty of useful things.

[Belafon]

Temperans wrote:

Knight get up to 9 uses of resolve. Each use grants HD * # of feat for a combat. At 20th lv you get 9*20*# of feats. 180 temp HP/feat. Burn is HD * burn points and you get 3+Con mod uses. Assuming +8 mod, that is 11*20 for a fully burnt Kineticist.

OK, I think I understand what you are saying now. I am still having trouble parsing it, and at first I thought you were suggesting that you could use Unconquerable Resolve and deduct the Burn cost from the temporary hit points granted by that feat (which you can't). But I think you're just pointing out "hey, here's a way to get temporary HP! That could be helpful if you're suffering from Burn."

Quote:

With 2 feats you can go from effectively -220 HP to effectively +140 HP. The fact it's only for 1 minute does mean much as it an ability meant to be used in combat or when you would suffer some effect. Aka you were already going to take damage, now you take much less.

That's a little misleading. The maximum amount of temporary hit points you can have from Unconquerable Resolve at any one time is (lvl * # of times you have taken the feat). So for your example of a 20th level kineticist who has taken Unconquerable Resolve twice, that's 40 hp.

I'm not saying your suggestion is a bad one. Unconquerable Resolve is a pretty decent feat for a Kinetic Knight. I personally wouldn't take it, mainly because you can't arbitrarily choose to spend a Resolve point. You have to wait for a triggering condition. With my luck I'd be unconscious before anything happened that I could spend Resolve on.

[Doompatrol]

Temperans wrote:

Kinetic Knight having full attack for free also means that they can use high cost infusions easier without having to Gather Power as often. Gather Power being relegated to when you want some of the other abilities.

Ride the Blast is fun and all, but having Pounce is much more useful. Not to mention that you rarely need Ride the Blast. Charging however? That is very useful. Also you discount free infusions. But many normal Kineticist would spend feats on more infusions. Something a Kinetic Knight straight up doesn't need.

Did I mention that Samurai Resolve gives access to the wonderful feat: Unconquerable Resolve? This wonderful feat that you can take multiple times gives you your HD in temp HP for each time you took the feat, every resolve point spent. That's right, when you spend a point to avoid a spell you also get HP to mitigate any damage that might still pass through. Effectively countering burn damage. (Taking the feat twice with 2 resolve points is 40 HP a day no questions asked).

There really is no comparing the tankiness of Regular vs Knight.

A normal kineticist already has the free blast, that free use only applies to the basic blade, not any of the advanced melee options, the normal kineticist also has the option of applying substance infusions to variety of ranged area affects. As for gather power, it's very much a requirement for the knight, they cannot use any of the decent substance infusions until level 8 without taking burn.

So if we use entangling, the gold standard early, a normal kineticist can hit an opponent within blast range, a knight is restricted to melee range, a simply inferior option.

Ride the blast is more than fun, it's an at will teleportation affect, that's incredibly useful. It can also be a better pounce if required although at a hefty cost of 3 burn, although unlike the Knight ability, it can be reduced with a prepared gather for kick in the door situations. The knights ability is always 2 burn. So you probably rarely if ever actually use it. The 50% bonus I keep pointing out, that a Knight does not get, is what you would use emergency burn for 99% of the time.

Yes a normal kineticist would spend feats on more options because it actually has those options to spend feats on. The knight is barred from most form infusions.

You don't get the resolve for free, it's a nice ability, but it's at the cost of a weakened gather power.

The core argument is that a Knight should be notably better at melee than a Kineticist. Taking away range is a big loss and yet, sadly, it's an inferior option.

You can push the resolve and the extra ac if they go water, but you're not selling the class for what its suppose to be. I consider the kineticist to be the best switch hitter in the game. How little investment is required to be good at both ranged and melee. A level one infusion and the weapon finesse feat is all that's required for a normal kineticist to be a solid melee class

[VoodistMonk]

I haven't much looked at the Kinetic Knight as a stand alone option... but I would imagine that they could invest in backup ranged options just like any other melee combatant.

Even a vanilla Kineticist focusing more on their ranged blasts is likely to spend a feat or two on their melee abilities... in the exact same sense, a Kinetic Knight could easily spend a feat or two on having a capable ranged backup option.

Grab PBS and carry a +1 bow... buy the ioun stone to have it be a HornBow... put the Training enchantment on it loaded with Rapid Shot.

I believe the melee options for a Kinetic Knight are potent enough that you might just have feats to spare if you aren't greedy.

[Temperans]

Belafon wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Knight get up to 9 uses of resolve. Each use grants HD * # of feat for a combat. At 20th lv you get 9*20*# of feats. 180 temp HP/feat. Burn is HD * burn points and you get 3+Con mod uses. Assuming +8 mod, that is 11*20 for a fully burnt Kineticist.

OK, I think I understand what you are saying now. I am still having trouble parsing it, and at first I thought you were suggesting that you could use Unconquerable Resolve and deduct the Burn cost from the temporary hit points granted by that feat (which you can't). But I think you're just pointing out "hey, here's a way to get temporary HP! That could be helpful if you're suffering from Burn."

Quote:

With 2 feats you can go from effectively -220 HP to effectively +140 HP. The fact it's only for 1 minute does mean much as it an ability meant to be used in combat or when you would suffer some effect. Aka you were already going to take damage, now you take much less.

That's a little misleading. The maximum amount of temporary hit points you can have from Unconquerable Resolve at any one time is (lvl * # of times you have taken the feat). So for your example of a 20th level kineticist who has taken Unconquerable Resolve twice, that's 40 hp.

I'm not saying your suggestion is a bad one. Unconquerable Resolve is a pretty decent feat for a Kinetic Knight. I personally wouldn't take it, mainly because you can't arbitrarily choose to spend a Resolve point. You have to wait for a triggering condition. With my luck I'd be unconscious before anything happened that I could spend Resolve on.

The triggers for resolve are easy to trigger. Specially the one where you don't go unconscious and stay at 0 HP instead. Which then becomes 40 Temp HP. Which you can do again when those temp HP are gone. Hence why the number I gave is not misleading, it's just the max you can use in a day, along with the max burn. (Most people would not go to max burn). But glad you understand why I am serious about that suggestion. It can be a real life saver in many situations.

Yes @Doompatrol the regular Kineticist is a better ranged striker. But we always said that Kinetic Knight is the better tank. That is still the case. Also as VoodistMonk said, it's not hard to get a secondary ranged option. Bow for normal attack, or a firearm if you want to targer touch.

[Belafon]

Temperans wrote:

The triggers for resolve are easy to trigger. Specially the one where you don't go unconscious and stay at 0 HP instead. Which then becomes 40 Temp HP. Which you can do again when those temp HP are gone.

Except the trigger is not “going unconscious.”

Unstoppable wrote:

When the samurai is reduced to fewer than 0 hit points but not slain, he can spend one use of his resolve as an immediate action to instantly stabilize and remain conscious. He is staggered, but he does not fall unconscious and begin dying if he takes a standard action.

Most kineticists are going to be unconscious long before they hit 0 HP because of burn. If our hypothetical 20th level kineticist has taken 4 points of burn she falls unconscious when she is below 80 HP. And once she’s unconscious she can’t use immediate actions.

[Temperans]

Nova Kineticist use that option since you don't spend burn early. Non nova use the fatigue or save route option. Or even the crit option. If you go Yojimbo (which would make sense), you can use it when an ally goes unconscious. Point is that there are a lot of options.

[Doompatrol]

VoodistMonk wrote:

I haven't much looked at the Kinetic Knight as a stand alone option... but I would imagine that they could invest in backup ranged options just like any other melee combatant.

Even a vanilla Kineticist focusing more on their ranged blasts is likely to spend a feat or two on their melee abilities... in the exact same sense, a Kinetic Knight could easily spend a feat or two on having a capable ranged backup option.

Grab PBS and carry a +1 bow... buy the ioun stone to have it be a HornBow... put the Training enchantment on it loaded with Rapid Shot.

I believe the melee options for a Kinetic Knight are potent enough that you might just have feats to spare if you aren't greedy.

I mean of course a kinetic knight can carry a ranged weapon, I've never seen a player with this expensive mid maxxy set up for their back up ranged weapon, not that it's op, just as op as you can get with no class features to support it.

A basic kineticist pairs so well with melee because it requires only one feat, weapon finesse. Then both styles are fully functional. The normal ranged fighting style is a notorious feat hog and at this point you're suggesting it so the knight can be slightly better with their emergency back up weapon. Why do that?

At some point, you need to stop defending it when have gotten to the point where you suggest things like this. To try and mimic what the basic kineticist is already good at with 1 feat and 1 infusion, not mediocre with heavy investment

[Temperans]

? No one is said to go full ranged. VoodustMonk quite literally suggested 2 feats and call it a day: And only if you want a back up ranged option. Most melee characters don't even bother getting those 2 feats.

[Doompatrol]

Temperans wrote:

? No one is said to go full ranged. VoodustMonk quite literally suggested 2 feats and call it a day: And only if you want a back up ranged option. Most melee characters don't even bother getting those 2 feats.

It was 3, they also had the training enchantment. Well going by their theory crafting they wanted the weapon, they where trying to make it look as competitive as possible against what a normal kineticist could do to defend the knight.

I agree, most wouldn't bother with the feats for a back up ranged weapon

[Melkiador]

Having a bow is a good idea for a kinetic knight, especially at low level, but instead of worrying about range, I like using air for that archetype. Wings of Air means you can just fly all day long. Between that and blade rush, you shouldn't need a ranged weapon very often.