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There's no explicit alignment rules for Vanguards in the COM, yet I feel like nonlawful alignments are implicit in their flavor text, given their core themes are change, entropy and decay, concepts generally associated with deities and planes that are some type of Chaotic.
IS there a way you can roleplay a Vanguard with a Lawful alignment? Or one who adheres to valu3s decidedly non-entropic in nature, like justice or peace, given that I imagine the default entropic perspective would be "those things can't last forever, peace will inevitably be broken by new conflicts and justice will eventually decay into arbitrary chaos?"
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Entropy is just a one way path of the free energy in the universe. Increasing "disorder" is just someone's spin on it. It just means you can't reverse any transfer of energy without spending more energy than the original change. If I spend my retirement savings, with no way to replenish them before my death, have I increased my financial disorder? Of course not.
There is nothing inherently chaotic about this, or any other physical law.
There is also nothing about the source of a power that you use that determines your actions and philosophy, which is what actuall determines your alignment.
The pregenerated iconic Vanguard is LN, by the way.
I thought Vanguards tapped into the spiritual energies of entropy similar to how Solarians tap into the spiritual energies of stellar bodies and "The Cycle" or mystics tap into their Connection.
And at a macro scale, entropy is just the natural progression of any system. Some call it chaotic breakdown, some call it orderly progression of nature, but at the end, entropy simply is.
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There is nothing alignment tied about entropy.
My alignment is not going to become more Chaotic for letting the icecubes in my drink melt, or for getting older.
Short of math there's not a lot more order than the laws of physlcs.As long as you stay away from the quantum stuff
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There is nothing alignment tied about entropy.
My alignment is not going to become more Chaotic for letting the icecubes in my drink melt, or for getting older.
Yeah, but it seems like almost anything connected with entropy in a metaphysical sense is either Chaotic (proteans, Azathoth, Groetus), Evil (sceaduinars and Ataxxea) or both (the Dominion of the Black, the Devourer, hunduns).
I also asked James Jacobs about this and he said it's nonsense to him for a Lawful character to be invested in entropy. I know he doesn't speak for Starfinder as much as he does for Pathfinder, but it's the same metaphysical universe so the same spiritual alignments should apply, right?
Short of math there's not a lot more order than the laws of physlcs.As long as you stay away from the quantum stuff
When you get into the quantum stuff, then you're not a Vanguard anymore, you're a Witchwarper. :P
Actively trying to increase the rate of entropy in the universe, probably evil and probably not lawful.
Using entropy as a tool to get a result - neutral.
I had a conversation with my physics professor where I argued entropy was the ultimate state of law, since it would wind up as one thing and nothing would change again, ever. The journey is chaotic but the destination is as lawful as can be.
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I also asked James Jacobs about this and he said it's nonsense to him for a Lawful character to be invested in entropy.
That just says more about him than it does about entropy. I am endlessly amazed by the extreme depths but incredible narrowness of his education and interests.
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To be fair, the powers you wield don't really dictate your alignment. Unless its from a divine source or something.
You also have Boundary aspect, Isolating the reach of entropy, so if you have entropy as your chaotic element, then wouldn't controlling it give some order to it?
Momentum has: You embody energy states that are preserved in ongoing motion, isolated from entropy.
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I'm confused now. I thought being a vanguard was spiritual in the same way a solarian is, sort of like Jedi and the Force. I looked at the iconic vanguard's story, though and there's very little to suggest any greater spiritual insight and it's more like an inborn ability apart from one "aHA!" moment that's more realizing what he's capable of rather than feeling some sort of spiritual connection. How do people BECOME vanguards anyway?
A bit of knowledge and a bit of training, just like every other class in the system.
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Alignment was a mistake.
To be fair, the powers you wield don't really dictate your alignment. Unless its from a divine source or something.
Even then starfinder Mystics are more like pathfinder oracles than clerics. Even if you don't believe in a God, they can believe in you and grant you their power/curse. You can have a vesk soldier thats caused so much death and destruction that some force grants him the ability to heal to make up for it.
I'm confused now. I thought being a vanguard was spiritual in the same way a solarian is, sort of like Jedi and the Force. I looked at the iconic vanguard's story, though and there's very little to suggest any greater spiritual insight and it's more like an inborn ability apart from one "aHA!" moment that's more realizing what he's capable of rather than feeling some sort of spiritual connection. How do people BECOME vanguards anyway?
The same way you become a soldier. By learning to kill things as a lad on the frontier. Or in bootcamp. Or as a religious monk focusing on Arcane Assailant.
The same you become an operative. By channeling psychic power into learning and instinctively understanding skills and basic weapons so well that you can use them better than anyone else, and also walk through walls and summon holograms and bend light by your will. Or by learning in spy camp and adapting secret/restricted personal tech to accomplish the same stuff. Or as a religious assassin powered by your god.
The same way you become a Solarian. As a monk at a fighting school who studies the Cycle. Or as a buff scholar interested in physics who managed to turn that hobby into a personal connection to starlight and gravity. Or as a devout worshiper of the Devourer who received his powers from his god.
The same way you become a Mechanic. By tinkering in your garage and teaching yourself how to build an AI. Or by attending tech school. Or by divine inspiration from Triune.
Huh... theres me thinking it was simply by taking levels in the class... sounds more complex your way
Alignment is at best a vaguely useful guideline and at worst a tiresome restriction based on flat understandings of what motivates people. There is exactly nothing keeping a Vanguard from having a lawful alignment. By the arguments presented, you could just as easily argue that a lawful character would never use lasers because they contribute in a small way towards entropy.
The vanguard powerset is a tool and not even one gated by requiring the good will of the more esoteric extraplanar entities that actually are tied to the nascent concepts of law and chaos. Entropy simply is and harnessing it to enact your will is no more or less chaotic than simply existing and contributing to entropy that way.
They don’t have to be. Nor Solarions or Mystics.
No class so far in starfinder is spiritual by default. Some can be, and quite a few mystics are, but none need to be spiritual.
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I have a character who is a solarian with cold-flavored solar flares. He inherited a variation on his dad's vanguard cosmic powers, but I just as easily could have said that he learned it at school or tripped over a magic rock one day.
It. Doesn't. Matter.
The origin of your abilities are flavour. Your characters background is the main factor if it being religious, spiritual, tech or skill based. Even a mix of the two.
Currently, my Vanguard is educated to learn how to use an innate talent. Our Solarian is an experimental SRO, Mystic is more spiritual then religious but I did base elements of the religious elements for her connection(Scimitar for her Epiphany weapon .)
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Okay, okay! You've already deconstructed my preconceptions of the class right down to their base assumptions! They're already invalidated! D:
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Okay, okay! You've already deconstructed my preconceptions of the class right down to their base assumptions! They're already invalidated! D:
We're not finished until we achieve full ego-death!
Okay, okay! You've already deconstructed my preconceptions of the class right down to their base assumptions! They're already invalidated! D:
Hey, guys. I brought my entropy baton! I was told there was a dead horse over here?
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That's somewhat difficult if you're trying to plan out a character's narrative arc in advance and it's dependent on a gradual alignment shift.
I've played some characters that START as LG hero-types that have been living their best LG lives throughout their campaigns, but now what I'm trying to plan out is a cynical, non-lawful person steadily adapting to the structure of military life and letting go of his bitterness through newfound faith in the goddess Hylax...given what you're saying, this personality shift would not impact an ability to channel entropy if playing a vanguard, despite becoming more and more disciplined and more kind and conflict-averse?
That's somewhat difficult if you're trying to plan out a character's narrative arc in advance and it's dependent on a gradual alignment shift.
I've played some characters that START as LG hero-types that have been living their best LG lives throughout their campaigns, but now what I'm trying to plan out is a cynical, non-lawful person steadily adapting to the structure of military life and letting go of his bitterness through newfound faith in the goddess Hylax...given what you're saying, this personality shift would not impact an ability to channel entropy if playing a vanguard, despite becoming more and more disciplined and more kind and conflict-averse?
Yep, actually considering the Vanguard defensive abilities, could even do a thing where the character is learning to protect his allies over pure destruction of his past.
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Also, there's nothing wrong with Alignment, as long as you realize it is descriptive rather than prescriptive. A person doesn't do good deeds because they are LG, they are LG because they do good deeds.
Curious, I play my characters the other way around. I pick an appropriate alignment for the character vision and then have that influence my character's actions. They are not completely bound within the designated alignment, mind you. I merely use it as a base for how they react.
That's somewhat difficult if you're trying to plan out a character's narrative arc in advance and it's dependent on a gradual alignment shift.
I've played some characters that START as LG hero-types that have been living their best LG lives throughout their campaigns, but now what I'm trying to plan out is a cynical, non-lawful person steadily adapting to the structure of military life and letting go of his bitterness through newfound faith in the goddess Hylax...given what you're saying, this personality shift would not impact an ability to channel entropy if playing a vanguard, despite becoming more and more disciplined and more kind and conflict-averse?
It can be that way if you want it to. How do you want the story to happen? Then it happens that way. If you want your alignment to dictate the change, it does. If you want the entropy aspect of the class to change the character from the inside, then it does. There is nothing saying that it does or does not work that way. It is up to you. Have fun telling your story because it seems like it'll be a cool one!