Adopted Ancestry : Dwarf - Boulder Roll

[Waldham]

Hello,
is it possible to take the bouler roll ancestry feat with adopted ancestry ?

Thanks for your future answer.

[HumbleGamer]

Adopted ancestry says

Quote:

You’re fully immersed in another ancestry’s culture and traditions, whether born into them, earned through rite of passage, or bonded through a deep friendship or romance. Choose a common ancestry. You can select ancestry feats from the ancestry you chose, in addition to your character’s own ancestry, as long as the ancestry feats don’t require any physiological feature that you lack, as determined by the GM.

Boulder Roll says

Quote:

Your dwarven build allows you to push foes around, just like a mighty boulder tumbles through a subterranean cavern. Take a Step into the square of a foe that is your size or smaller, and the foe must move into the empty space directly behind it. The foe must move even if doing so places it in harm's way. The foe can attempt a Fortitude saving throw against your Athletics DC to block your Step. If the foe attempts this saving throw, unless it critically succeeds, it takes bludgeoning damage equal to your level plus your Strength modifier.

If the foe can't move into an empty space (if it is surrounded by solid objects or other creatures, for example), your Boulder Roll has no effect.
Traits

Not being a dwarf, you'll be lacking the dwarven build.

But same would go for its prerequisite

Quote:

Your innate connection to stone makes you adept at moving across uneven surfaces. You can ignore difficult terrain caused by rubble and uneven ground made of stone and earth. In addition, when you use the Acrobatics skill to Balance on narrow surfaces or uneven ground made of stone or earth, you aren't flat-footed, and when you roll a success at one of these Acrobatics checks, you get a critical success instead.

I think that something like an "innate connection to stone" is not something you can achieve by dwelling with dwarves or being into their culture.

[Aw3som3-117]

This is going to be firmly in the GM discretion category.
I would allow it for two primary reasons:
1. The arguments for not allowing it are primarily flavor-text based rather than something that legitimately can't be explained in the game world. Like, if you were to have to grow a tail or something like that, then it'd be a different story, but no visual physiological change would have to take place for the ability to seem possible.
2. It's not OP

That being said, as HumbleGamer pointed out, there are, in fact, words in the description of the ability that suggest that it's related to being a dwarf physically, so some GMs may take that to heart and not allow it.

[breithauptclan]

Adopted Ancestry wrote:

You’re fully immersed in another ancestry’s culture and traditions, whether born into them, earned through rite of passage, or bonded through a deep friendship or romance. Choose a common ancestry. You can select ancestry feats from the ancestry you chose, in addition to your character’s own ancestry, as long as the ancestry feats don’t require any physiological feature that you lack, as determined by the GM.

With HumbleGamer's ruling, practically every ancestry feat would be prevented. Most of them have some sort of flavor that ties them to that Ancestry.

I don't see 'Dwarven Build' being something that is physiologically unique to Dwarves. Unique physiology would be something like Strix wings, Catfolk claws, or Dhampir fangs. Even then, I could see allowing similar physiology to count. Such as using Lizardfolk Claws in places of Catfolk claws when taking ... Hey look at that - Catfolk's Aggrivating Scratch only requires a claw unarmed attack instead of having dependency on Catfolk Claws specifically.

[breithauptclan]

So yeah. Maybe taking Dwarf Boulder Roll as a Melixie Sprite may be pushing things a bit too far. But as a Human, Elf, or other medium size ancestry (and probably even the small sized ones) I think that Boulder Roll should be fine.

[HumbleGamer]

breithauptclan wrote:

Adopted Ancestry wrote:

You’re fully immersed in another ancestry’s culture and traditions, whether born into them, earned through rite of passage, or bonded through a deep friendship or romance. Choose a common ancestry. You can select ancestry feats from the ancestry you chose, in addition to your character’s own ancestry, as long as the ancestry feats don’t require any physiological feature that you lack, as determined by the GM.

With HumbleGamer's ruling, practically every ancestry feat would be prevented. Most of them have some sort of flavor that ties them to that Ancestry.

I think that you'd be stuck with your "innate connection to stone" from the lvl 1 feat, even considering a human/elf with the physiology of a dwarf.

This, obviously, knowing that at the end everything comes up to the DM's approval.

Even if, a new "physiological" trait would come in handy for what adopted ancestry might allow you to take or not.

[Kelseus]

Yeah, there isn't really much here to hang your hat on one way or the other. This is 100% in the "Ask your GM" category.

[WatersLethe]

As long as the character's backstory involves significant time spent with dwarves, I'd allow it.

Rock Runner boils down to experience with traversing uneven stones, and Boulder Roll boils down to having a low center of gravity which could be obtained by, say, adopting a stance suitable for spending a lot of time crouching in low tunnels.

I don't see a good balance reason to disallow it, and it's not absurd like sprouting wings or growing a tail, so I'd err on the side of making my player happy.

[David knott 242]

And that feat lacks the language prohibiting retraining into or out of the feat. Language like that is the biggest clue that a feat is meant to be tied to physiology.

[Captain Morgan]

Kelseus wrote:

Yeah, there isn't really much here to hang hat on one way or the other. This is 100% in the "Ask your GM" category.

In a Waldham thread? Whaaaaaaaaaaaaaat

[Themetricsystem]

I have always hated Adpoted cheese and would never allow this, the feat clearly describes that your physique as a Dwarf is part of what enables this.

Big no.

[breithauptclan]

Themetricsystem wrote:

I have always hated Adpoted cheese and would never allow this, the feat clearly describes that your physique as a Dwarf is part of what enables this.

Big no.

So then is Innocuous also out since it specifically lists Halflings as being the only ancestry that can be unobtrusive? A Gnome or Goblin raised by Halflings is just too conspicuous.

[Guntermench]

breithauptclan wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

I have always hated Adpoted cheese and would never allow this, the feat clearly describes that your physique as a Dwarf is part of what enables this.

Big no.

So then is Innocuous also out since it specifically lists Halflings as being the only ancestry that can be unobtrusive? A Gnome or Goblin raised by Halflings is just too conspicuous.

Adopted Ancestry wrote:

You can select ancestry feats from the ancestry you chose, in addition to your character’s own ancestry, as long as the ancestry feats don’t require any physiological feature that you lack, as determined by the GM.

Depends, if it's their size they should be fine.

[Gortle]

Adopted Ancestry wrote:

You can select ancestry feats from the ancestry you chose, in addition to your character’s own ancestry, as long as the ancestry feats don’t require any physiological feature that you lack, as determined by the GM.

Precisely: any physiological feature that you lack.

Other races can be built like a dwarf. I mean the langauage is very loose and a lot of GM interpretation is going to be involved. Personally I think it is a bit too far in this case.

Innocuous is out but only because that has a specific heritage requirement.

[Plane]

GM discretion for me, too. If the player is cheesing, no. If they invest a sliver of roleplay? Sure.

"Innate connection to stone?" This is typical P2 flavor to me. Would a dwarf raised on a sailing ship have this just for being a dwarf? Nothing in the ancestry says so. That's why it's in a selectable feat. Can your human who spent their life raised by dwarves around stone develop this? GM's discretion, a yes for me.

It's the same story for the dwarven build. You aren't necessarily born with a build. You "build" it. Sure, there are predispositions, but if my player in this example is saying their time in cramped tunnels with heavy burdens, dwarven style armor, mining, and forging gave them a shorter, stockier "dwarf-like" build? It's a yes for me.

If they're not building around this kind of a story and just want the feat? I would encourage a roleplaying solution where possible. If it's an elf they describe as tall and slender with a dancer's body and performance related profession to support dance? No, now our flavor doesn't mesh, and it's clear there's potential cheese. Is there a way to reskin this feat to work with a dancer? Sure, let's have fun with it. After all, I'm the GM. Why can't I decide to allow what's fun?

[voideternal]

How do you even cheese boulder roll? This feat is extremely situational / weak.

[Ravingdork]

Dude, if you think a kid raised on a dwarven diet, with a dwarven exercise regimen, working and fighting like a dwarf their whole life isn't going to end up with some of that dwarven physique, then I don't believe anyone would ever benefit from Adopted options in your games.

[Guntermench]

I mean, a human adopted by them is unlikely to stay 4ish feet tall.

[Ravingdork]

Guntermench wrote:

I mean, a human adopted by them is unlikely to stay 4ish feet tall.

I mean, I did say,

Ravingdork wrote:

...some of that dwarven physique...

[Charon Onozuka]

breithauptclan wrote:

Themetricsystem wrote:

I have always hated Adpoted cheese and would never allow this, the feat clearly describes that your physique as a Dwarf is part of what enables this.

Big no.

So then is Innocuous also out since it specifically lists Halflings as being the only ancestry that can be unobtrusive? A Gnome or Goblin raised by Halflings is just too conspicuous.

Innocuous also specifics that "Halflings have been unobtrusive assistants of larger folk for untold ages, and your people count on this assumption of innocence."

It'd be perfectly reasonable to say that no matter how much your gnome/goblin may have adapted to Halfling culture - other people still see a gnome/goblin when looking at them and won't assume the Halfling stereotypes which make the feat work. [Especially considering goblins are stereotypically anything but innocent.]

---

Normally I wouldn't place too much emphasis on the flavor line of feats, but ancestries are all about flavor. Without flavor, elfs are just thin humans, dwarfs are just short & bearded humans, etc. Ignoring flavor here seems like it'd also ignore a large part of what makes them separate ancestries in the first place, so I'm more inclined to include it as a consideration to if the Adopted feat would work.

[breithauptclan]

The problem with the heavy restrictions is that it devalues the General feat of Adopted Ancestry. For a typical character, they get their 5th and final General feat at 19th level. So what does work then?

Does Halfling Luck work? Do other ancestries have the same capability for a happy-go-lucky attitude, or is that something unique to Halflings?

How about Prarie Rider? Do you have to be able to ride the Pony or Riding Dog, or do you still get the bonus to commanding them even if you are too large to ride them?

And what about Strix Fledgling Flight? There is no rules text in that feat - flavor or otherwise - that actually says that you have to have Strix wings (or any other wings such as Tengu wings) in order to use the feat.

Reading these ancestry feats by strict RAW leads to too many problems. It has to be judged on a case-by-case basis by the GM and the table playing.

[breithauptclan]

For example, an Anadi with Adaptive (Strix) heritage taking Fledgling Flight, Juvenile Flight, and Fully Flighted is technically illegal. Strix is a Rare ancestry rather than a Common one that Adaptive Anadi heritage requires.

But a flying humanoid spider hybrid is way too much awesome nightmare fuel to forbid.

[Cordell Kintner]

breithauptclan wrote:

For example, an Anadi with Adaptive (Strix) heritage taking Fledgling Flight, Juvenile Flight, and Fully Flighted is technically illegal. Strix is a Rare ancestry rather than a Common one that Adaptive Anadi heritage requires.

But a flying humanoid spider hybrid is way too much awesome nightmare fuel to forbid.

Just be a Beastkin Anadi. Since they have the Humanoid trait that combo is perfectly fine...