What's the point of wearing armor in SFOP?

[DM Kludde]

I've recently picked up GMing some SFOP scenarios, and what has struck me is that even at low level, all enemies come with a standard >+12 to hit. I'm currently running an encounter where the main monsters have +16 to hit.

Disclaimer: not meant as criticism. I'm just trying to calibrate my understanding of things

Under these circumstances, what is the point of wearing armor?

Consider this:

Fritz "no-armor" McDamage wears no armor, and has the worst reflexes on this side of the diaspora. His EAC/KAC is 10/10, and he would get hit on any roll of 2+

Bulbaszam "the tank" McTurtle has the most badass armor money can buy, and great gun-slinging reflexes, getting his AC up to 16/16. Unfortunately for him, this does mean sacrificing a neat +2 to reflex saves. On a roll of 2... he gets hit.

He's literally better off running around in his underpants: he'd get the extra +2 to reflex, and gets the additional shock value of a Vesk running around in underpants.

When would I reasonably invest in armor in SFS?

[BigNorseWolf]

You're probably onto something. And this is why i think 2e went with a raise system where getting hit by more is worse rather than a simple hit./miss model. So far 4 of my characters have gone to level 6-8 in second skin before upgrading. Two of them are even kind of meleeish.
I just buy a six pack of calden cayden brand healing serums (drink till you feel better, one way or another) on the offhand chance they're into HP during a non boss fight.

With that said the armor isn't entirely useless

While McTurtle and McDamage both get hit on a 2 while Killermonster attacks, when Killermonster FULL attacks the results are different. McDamage is still getting hit on a 2 while McTurtle needs a 3.

You need some armor to not die from environmental effects.

You CAN get missed. It takes a fair bit of investment though. A character in Basic Iridishell armor (+6) with a 14 dex (+2) fighting defensively (+2) could have a KAC of 20

A level 7 monster isn't as far above a level 4 pc as a level 4 monster is above a level 1 PC, so the problem you're seeing here gets better as you level.

Higher level armor provides better radiation bonuses, so level 6 starts to look like a good time to upgrade

Most importantly, armor upgrades. These are ridiculously handy, fairly powerful, and versatile add ons to customize your character. Higher level armor lets you have more slots to use.

So where is your money going?

Its not the weapons (most level 4 weapons aren't all that much better than their level 1 counterparts to justify 5x the price)

Starfinder backpack
bag of holding/ null space chamber
Personal Augmentations (+ stat)
Cybernetics (eye upgrade, +10 movement leg upgrade, better hearing)
Toolkits. All. the. toolkits.

[HammerJack]

Also, the character who is trying to actually not get hit by a serious threat while standing in front of then doesn't have expensive armor.

They have expensive armor, a shield with a passive bonus (for enemies they aren't engaged with), and an offensive routine that looks less like "full attack" and more like "Move Action Improved demoralize, followed by standard action attack with my Xenolash (entangled on every hit) which has the bright property (and a dazzle on hit from my Blazing Strike gear boost) or at later levels a bright weapon with a Cruel Fusion (sickens shaken creatures when you hit them)" or other equivalents. (Variations are possible for a number of classes).

Being a tank from the AC bonus of your armor alone isn't a thing. The AC bonus from armor being one important part of a layered defense (which includes preemptive debuffs, AC, resistances and adecent stamin a cushion) is.

[BigNorseWolf]

... I did not realize how nasty an entangle weapon was till just now.

Viva la mathfinder

[Ascalaphus]

In my experience, armor works pretty decently after the first levels, it's really very much in the first levels that it's not that effective. The math improves later on, but then expectations have already been set.

[andreww]

I find it is often more about blunting the effectiveness of full attacks. You can generally expect to take a fair few hits in Starfinder but thats why we have such easily recoverable stamina. Its been quite a while sine I have seen a Starfinder character rendered unconscious.

["Dr." Cupi]

Also, do note that you may face enemies that are below your level...

[Gary Bush]

There is nothing in this thread that relates to a specific adventure so I am flagging it to be moved to the Starfinder Rules Forum.

[Ascalaphus]

You could wonder if SFS adventures are written in a specific way that makes armors perform better/worse than "baseline" SF adventures.

I think compared to APs, SFS adventures may have a slightly higher density of boss monsters, because an SFS scenario will tend to march to a conclusion in 3-4 encounters. Meanwhile, an AP book typically has a boss at the halfway point and at the end, so more minor monsters in between.

So in theory, armor might be worse in SFS. Still, that's just not the experience I've had, as someone who does invest in armor.

[HammerJack]

If you're looking for SFS specific concerns about armor, I think the biggest one is that in SFS you buy everything, and never loot things for more than a single scenario. That can apply a sticker shock that you may avoid in a home game (especially if not accounting for the fact that the society pays quite well).

[BigNorseWolf]

Absolutely. Your loot system will 100% affect how useful you find armor.

Murdermart: Most of your gear comes from looted enemies

Wealth Reset: At X level you have WBL according to the chart

Cash and Carry: You pay for everything out of pocket as you level

Using murdermart absolutely 100% is use the best armor you can loot. You only get 10% of the value otherwise and even then, you'll get the 10% eventually, you're just delaying the cash coming in till your next armor upgrade. SFS scenarios will temporarily dabble their toes in here if you find an enemy with cool armor, roughly your shape, or have... however long it takes to resize armor to spend getting your ironman on.

Using wealth reset it becomes a very viable idea to always have armor on or above level. Always getting on or above level armor is just dumping a flat 1/3 or 1/2 or 3/8ths or whatever of your gear total into the pot. For pregens and playtest characters I think this gives better expectations of what armor can do compared to....

Using SFSs cash and carry system you cannot upgrade armor every level. It would cost you more money than you make. So your armor gets a little swingy. You buy level +2 armor off a chronicle, You're relatively missable for a few levels, then you fall behind a bit so the armor is useless, and have the choice of toughing it out or tossing more of your cash into the armor pile. Armor in SFSs loot system is functionally a long use consumable (much like everything else in SFS besides personal stat upgrades and utility items like null space chambers)

SFSs loot system absolutely impacts gear spending and armor is a big part of that.

[Kishmo]

DM Kludde wrote:

Bulbaszam "the tank" McTurtle

I don't really have anything useful to add to this thread, but *furious sounds of writing hypothetical character notes* that name is amazing and I am stealing it!

[Cellion]

Also, +12 and +16 are not typical in my experience for Tier 1-2 Encounters, except perhaps as end bosses (and even then, +16 is out there). Picking out three Tier 1-4 scenarios at random from my files:

In one the highest attack bonus of any creature is +9 for the 1-2 bracket.

In the second, the highest attack bonus is +12 in the 1-2 bracket, and that's only on the final boss. All other foes vary around +8 ish.

In the third, the highest attack bonus is +12 in the 1-2 bracket, and thats for a solo-foe encounter midway through. All other foes vary around +7 ish.

[Terminalmancer]

Lau Bannenberg wrote:

In my experience, armor works pretty decently after the first levels, it's really very much in the first levels that it's not that effective. The math improves later on, but then expectations have already been set.

In my experience, this above is the big thing. Until about level 5 or so, armor's mostly good for upgrade slots and maybe reducing the percentages on full attacks. Starting around level 5 (or 6 or 7 depending on chronicle sheets and armor purchases) the bonuses start scaling usefully and the quality of the armor you buy starts to have a noticeable effect on enemy and boss hit %'s.

[HammerJack]

The other relevant difference of looking at this question through an SFS lens is printed tactics. A character that does not upgrade armor at all is extremely vulnerable to combat maneuvers, but a lot if the cruelest things that can result from that vulnerability (minions pinning the PC easily, enemies stealing weapons and fleeing, etc) are not something that comes up in society scenarios (and not something you should suddenly add!) outside of infrequent creatures with Grab attacks hitting the KAC+13 threshold to pin.

[Philippe Lam]

I don't hold too much illusions about the effectiveness of KAC/EAC against bosses, but it's still useful if they take penalties for any reason, but lowering the numbers of hits coming from the lesser mobs is the most important there. As long I can survive long enough to outlast the enemies, that's what matters (it helps me to be able to rely on a big stamina pool)

[Belafon]

Math (interesting to some, boring to others)

Spoiler:

Let's compare the maximum KAC of heavy armor (Armor + Dex) to the high value for NPCs' attack bonus as given in the Bestiary.

1st level
---------
KAC + Max Dex = +6
Combatant Array = +8
Expert Array = +6
Spellcaster Array = +4

10th level
----------
KAC + Max Dex = +20
Combatant Array = +22
Expert Array = +20
Spellcaster Array = +18

This pattern repeats throughout pretty much every level. What we find is that for an equivalent-level fight (1st level heavy armor vs. 1st level NPC or 10th level heavy armor vs. 10th level NPC), a combatant should hit on an 8, an expert on a 10, and a spellcaster on a 12. That's right around 50 percent and sounds like very reasonable numbers.

So why aren't our "tank" characters getting hit only 50% of the time? Two reasons.

1. Attack bonus for NPCs increases at roughly 1.5/level. So if we are fighting something 2 levels higher than us, its attack bonus is 3 better. And we are often fighting things that are challenging, 2 or 3 levels above us.

2. In SFS, it's pretty much impossible to afford to upgrade your armor every level. A 3rd level character is rather unlikely to be wearing 3rd level armor.

Add points 1 and 2 together, and the "effective attack bonus" can be 6 or more above what an equivalent level fight would be. Which would mean a combatant NPC hits McTurtle on a 2.

But that's for a high-level (boss) combatant array making a single attack with its best bonus.

So why wear armor? To use armor upgrades, of course. But also to avoid the weaker attacks. A single strong attack from a boss may be nearly guaranteed to hit you, but avoiding multi-attacks and minion attacks can really add up.

[Justin Norveg]

Fiscal responsibility and you. The new economy

[Heather F]

Moved to Starfinder Rules.