So I have played a bunch of kineticists, even some of the archtypes, but I am confused with the elemental annihlator. It's blast damage doesn't seem to scale, so the normal kineticist vastly surpasses it in damage. I understand it gets more attacks, eventually. Though I can't seem to understand why that makes them do more damage. I have been told the elemental annihilator is one of the MOST powerful if not THE most powerful kineticist out there. Why? How? The only thing i can think of is whip infusion for larger threatening range, is there something I am missing?
That's the first I've heard of the elemental annihilator being especially good. Getting lots of attacks and trying to stack up little bonuses on all of them is a more standard PF optimisation tactic than the normal kineticist, but it doesn't look great to me either.
Maybe you should ask the person who you say told you it was 'one of the MOST powerful if not THE most powerful kineticist out there'? They'd be the one who knows what they're referring to best after all.
I think whoever told you it was the strongest is hung up on the 20th level ability, that effectively does 50d6+50 damage… sure it is a very powerful ability… but it is only available at level 20…
They could also be misunderstanding the flurry of devastation ability and believe that they can combine two-weapon fighting, rapid shot, and using their Devastating infusion as a two-handed weapon… when you misinterpret a few of the archetypes abilities, it most certainly can come across as extremely powerful… but anyone who actually reads it in full and properly understands the interactions can plainly see just how weak it really is…
Devastating Infusion has a set damage die, but it doesn't replace your regular Kinetict Blast.
If you guys really want to complain about something dumb for that archetype is that Devastating Infusion only works with Physical Blasts. Yes, this rules out fire completely, when it's probably the most suitable element for that kind of character.
I swear, Earth should have gotten Acid as an Energy alternative, Aether should have gotten Sonic as an Energy alternative, Fire should have gotten Hard Light as a Physical alternative.
This was an interesting excuse to learn more about the kineticist, which I actually wasn't familiar with. Y'all let me know if I got something wrong.
TLDR: The Elemental Annihilator is capable of doing more damage than the baseline Kineticist, but not a huge amount more. I certainly don't think it's worth it for what the Elemental Annihilator has to give up in return.
A few more conclusions:
- The Two Weapon Fighting route is a bit of a trap for the EA
- Touch attacks are the great equalizer in most cases, since the majority of monsters have negligible touch ACs. The EA can squeeze out a bit of an advantage over Kinetic Whip touch attacks, especially when they've got an entire extra attack on the baseline Kineticist, but it's not that much of an advantage. Spell resistance, and the relative prevalence of DR vs energy resistance or immunity might change this though.
- Deadly Aim is a trap option for the baseline Kineticist.
- Power Attack is, likewise, mostly a trap option for the baseline Kineticist.
- Some of the extra combat feats I didn't factor in, that the EA gets access too, could push things slightly more in their favor. Items they don't get to use, such as the diadem, could balance this out again though.
- I don't really like the kineticist - just not my thing :P.
If we look at what the Elemental Annihilator gets, it's biggest addition is an effectively 0 (with Infusion Specialization) burn full attack option. Since both can spend burn to pull off a big composite blast, potentially even combined with kinetic blade or whip, we should be comparing full round 0 burn attack options between the baseline Kineticist and the Elemental Annihilator.
For the regular Kineticist that's a Simple Blast with up to two points of total substance or form infusions and the Empower Spell metakinesis (reduced to 0 by Infusion specialization and Gather Power as a move action), or a full attack with the Kinetic Whip infusion. Since we're looking for maximum expected damage, I'm just going to use Focused Blast, which increases accuracy, as the infusion on the simple blast.
Shared assumptions for damage comparison:
- 10th level Kineticist, with racial bonuses or penalties not factored in
- 3 Burn for purposes of Elemental Overflow
- Attack Stat: 20 (14 Base + 4 Enh + 2 Size)
- Constitution: 26 (18 Base + 4 Enh + 2 Size)
- Weapon Focus
- Haste (Boots of Speed, or other source)
- Easy target AC of 24, Med target AC of 30, Hard target AC of 36
- Touch target AC of 12 - essentially assuming it hits except on a 1
- No SR, energy resistance, energy immunity, or damage reduction
EA Devastating Infusion Full Attack Melee (Two Hands, Power Attack, Weapon Specialization, Greater WF, Improved Critical) :
+20/+20/+15 Kinetic Blast 1d8 + 25 (19-20 x2) (Easy: 74.63, Med: 45.43, Hard: 17.77)
+23/+23/+18 Kinetic Blast W/out PA 1d8 + 16 (19-20 x2) (Easy: 59.76, Med: 41.72, Hard: 21.42)
EA Full Attack Melee (Weapon Finesse, TWF, Improved TWF, Double Slice, Power Attack)
+17/+17/+12 Kinetic Blast 1d8 + 16, +17/+12 Kinetic Blast (offhand) 1d8 + 13 (Easy: 60.95, Med: 30.56, Hard: 8.14)
+20/+20/+20/+15/+15 Kinetic Blast 1d8 + 10 W/out PA (Easy: 57.09, Med: 34.26, Hard: 12.94)
EA Full Attack Ranged (Within 30ft, Deadly Aim, Rapid Shot, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot):
+18/+18/+18/+13 Kinetic Blast 1d8 + 17 (Easy: 62.08, Med: 34.99, Hard: 11.29)
+21/+21/+21/+16 Kinetic Blast w/out DA 1d8 + 11 (Easy: 54.52, Med: 34.99, Hard: 15.46)
Regular Kineticist Simple Blast (Focused Blast, Empowered, Within 30ft, Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot, Deadly Aim)
Physical: +19 Simple Kinetic Blast (5d6 + 20) * 1.5 (Easy: 47.25, Med: 29.54, Hard: 11.82)
Physical w/ Deadly Aim: +17 Simple Kinetic Blast (5d6 + 24) * 1.5 (Easy: 45.75, Med: 26.15, Hard: 6.54)
Energy: +19 Simple Kinetic Blast (Ranged Touch) (5d6 + 11) * 1.5 (Touch: 42.65)
Regular Kineticist Kinetic Whip (Two Hands w/ One Handed Weapon, Power Attack)
Physical: +17/+17/+12 Kinetic Whip 5d6 + 13 (Easy: 59.25, Med: 30.42, Hard: 8.01)
Physical w/ Power Attack: +15/+15/+10 Kinetic Whip 5d6 + 19 (Easy: 59.4, Med: 24.91, Hard: 5.75)
Energy: +17/+17/+12 Kinetic Whip (Melee Touch) 5d6 + 4 (Touch: 64.34)
Two things I ran across while writing this up that I'm not sure about:
1. Can Weapon Finesse be combined with a two handed melee Devastating Infusion attack to deal 1.5 * Con damage? Melee attacks with this infusion act "as if she were using kinetic blade", which allows you to create a light or one-handed weapon. Presumably, you'd have to create a light weapon to use Weapon Finesse, and the rules for light weapons specify "Using two hands to wield a light weapon gives no advantage on damage; the Strength bonus applies as though the weapon were held in the wielder’s primary hand only." On the other hand we're not applying strength to damage, and Devastating Infusion simply states "if she uses two hands, the attack's damage is equal to 1d8 + 1-1/2 times her Constitution modifier". It's not clear to me whether that's overriding the general rules for using a light weapon in two hands or not.
2. A Substance Infusion can be applied to a kinetic blast with along with Devastating Infusion, but the Elemental Annihilator trades away the normal infusion choices before 11th level. The infusion ability specifies that "at 5th, 11th, and 17th levels, a Kineticist can replace one of her infusions with another infusion of the same effective spell level or lower." An Elemental Annihilator gains the extended range infusion at 3rd level as a bonus from the Increased Range ability; can this be traded at 5th level for another level 1 infusion?
Laegrim, I appreciate how you dive head first down the rabbit hole... I applaud your ability to research and analyze.