Taja the Barbarian
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As I am now playing an Arcane Bloodrager, I'm going to get a couple of abilities that increase the DC when Casting Defensively: Source
Advanced Class Guide pg. 18
PRPG Core Rulebook pg. 122 Your training makes it difficult for enemy spellcasters to safely cast spells near you.Source
Prerequisites: 6th-level fighter.
Benefit: The DC to cast spells defensively increases by +4 for all enemies that are within your threatened area. This increase to casting spells defensively only applies if you are aware of the enemy's location and are capable of taking an attack of opportunity. If you can only take one attack of opportunity per round and have already used that attack, this increase does not apply.
Are casters aware of these increased DCs before they attempt to cast defensively? I'm guessing they definitely realize 'that was harder than expected' once they roll, but I'm wondering if they realize this before they decide on their action.
| Ryze Kuja |
Short Answer: No, they don't, but yes, they can guess. This is metagame territory though.
Long Answer: No, they don't know anything about your character and what he/she can do. But, high intelligence characters do exist, and can assume certain things through incredible leaps of logic even with little or no information. In terms of how much can be logically reasoned with little/no information, I tell my players that enemies who have a 20+ Intelligence might as well have your character sheet in front of them. Much can be assumed just by looking at you and very little will actually surprise them, similar to how Sherlock Holmes (who probably has an Int of 18-19) makes his fantastic deductions based upon seemingly trivial (but important) information, such as chalk dust on one's lapel or a brick-colored mud on one's shoe.
This is the burden of the GM insofar as how to roleplay these things without actually metagaming the PC's though. It's a thin line to walk, tbh. But, in any case, the GM should be able to explain the reasoning for "how" any particular bad guy character deduced that a PC would be "harder than normal to cast near" without any prior experience of trying to cast near them, and if the GM can reasonably explain this, then it's not metagaming.
Diego Rossi
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More or less I agree with what Ryze said. How much Perception and/or Sense Motive the guy has matter. AFAIK there is no skill to get an idea of a guy class at first sight.
Disruptive requires having an AoO available, so a Sense motive check can help to notice that the guy is particularly ready to strike.
It is all GM territory and a bit of metagaming, so it varies tremendously from table to table.
If the enemy had the time to gather information on your party because you messed with him before, because you are famous, or for other reasons, it becomes more probable that he knows about your group members' capabilities.
| Ryze Kuja |
A Knowledge (Local) Monster Lore check vs. Humanoids will give the BBEG a lot of info about the PC and will provide him with plenty of general "pre-combat knowledge" prior to a Combat Feat or Class Feature/ability even being used. A Knowledge (Local or Arcana) "Recall Intrigues" check will let the BBEG make a Spellcraft-like check to discern any Combat Feats or Class Features/abilities that are actively being used.
So even if the BBEG fails a Knowledge (Local) Monster Lore check vs. Humanoids (DC: 10+ your CR) to see if you "definitely" or "probably" or "maybe don't" have the Disruptive Feat or Disruptive Bloodrage class feature, then the BBEG will certainly be able to use a Knowledge (Local) Recall Intrigues to Identify a Combat Feat (Disruptive) that is actively in use after trying to cast next to you (also DC: 10+ your CR). In your case, Disruptive Bloodrage is a Class Feature from an Arcane Class, so the DC to discern that is a Knowledge (Arcana) check with DC 10+ the level you gained the class feature at, so a DC 11.
| Mysterious Stranger |
The feat requires you to be able to actually make an attack of opportunity or it has no affect. Unlike many such feats just threatening the caster is not enough, you actually have to be capable of making the attack or opportunity. That kind of implies that the character with the feat has to actually do something while the caster is casting for it to take effect. It does not state you actually have to make the attack, but seems like some action is needed even if it is a free action. In that case the caster is unlikely to be aware of the increase before he starts to cast defensively.
Disruptive Bloodrage does not require you to be able do anything. It is also a supernatural ability instead of a extraordinary ability. That means that the ability does not function in antimagic field. That would imply that more like an aura that makes casting defensively more difficult. Since the ability is present whenever the bloodrager is in a blood rage it should be noticeable.
| Ryze Kuja |
So if your GM follows the strict rules for a BBEG deducing such information, it would go something like this:
Prior to combat, or prior to ever observing you in combat, the BBEG will make this check:
Knowledge (Local) Monster Lore vs. Humanoids check
A successful check (DC: 10 + your level/CR) will allow him to identify your "special powers or vulnerabilities", so this would not necessarily give the BBEG the 100% firm intel of "this Bloodrager definitely has the Disruptive Bloodrage class ability" but he *might* be able to know that you're a Bloodrager with the Arcane Bloodline, and would be uncertain as to whether you have Blood Havoc or Disruptive Bloodrage class feature. But either way, you're going to be hard to cast against regardless because you carry a big stick.
Once combat ensues or if the BBEG has observed you in combat in the past, and you use the Disruptive Bloodrage or Disruptive Feat against the BBEG, or if you used it against another enemy in the past, the BBEG would make these checks:
Knowledge (Arcana) Recall Intrigues check vs. "Identify a class feature from a class that grants arcane or psychic spells" (DC: 10+ class level when the feature is granted) to identify Disruptive Bloodrage.
or
Knowledge (Local) Recall Intrigues check vs. "Identify a combat feat being used" (DC: 10+ character’s level/CR) to identify Disruptive feat.
And then if successful, he would most certainly know that you have these.
| Azothath |
I'd agree that characters do not know when imperceivable feats/abilities are at work changing DCs that haven't been experienced yet.
some knowledge checks are noted above, some scenarios tell the GM that the BBEG observes the PCs and chooses the best defense or changes spells. In that case Deux ex Machina/boxed text got you.
If the PC brags in game before/during combat and the foes hear it... ahhh well. That happens more often than not. loose lips sink ships
Some things are observable, others not. Trigger conditions for Glyph of Warding, Selective Alarm
Characters know when they are in a threatened area. Generally weapons from adjacent foes try to enter a combatant's square and do bad things to them. The same is true for whips... the whip snaps about in its threatened area, ummm, threatening creatures in it... see Warding Weapon{A}2 where casters are given advice about Disruptive and then Wreath of Blades{A}5 which has more about it.
What Feats a character has are generally unknown, some are obvious like Improved Familiar if the familiar is out and visible. Many are assumed as there are a lot of similar builds and people assume others make good choices. Most characters assume the wizard looking guy is a spellcaster, and guys with two weapons (one big, one small) have two-weapon fighting. No metagaming necessary.
Don't assume that simply given an AoO that you'll successfully hit a prepared spellcaster, they can be very defensive and hard to damage.
| AwesomenessDog |
It also is a thing to identify classes/archetypes/feats/etc. with a knowledge check from the Spymaster's Handbook. That said, it does make less sense how you can presume a class even less so a feat at first site than a monster itself, but given that Kn is an Int based skill, Ryze nailed it more or less perfectly on the head.
| Joesi |
I tell my players that enemies who have a 20+ Intelligence might as well have your character sheet in front of them.
Although this might not make sense in the cases where they are using illusion or polymorph spells to appear different (and while rarer, Mind Blank, Magic Aura or Nondetection as well)
| VoodistMonk |
Occult Skill Unlock: Phrenology lists the Know:Arcana DC's to determine...
Race and Age, DC10
Gender, DC 15
Alignment, DC 15+HD
Class, DC 20+HD
Level or HD, DC 25+HD
And Phrenology requires 1 minute of intense study of the target's skull... not exactly an easy task to acquire this information. Or a certain Bardic Performance. Either way, though, not just a simple check.
The 2nd level spell Blood Biography can get race, gender, and role/profession... which doesn't exactly mean it tells class or archetype or feats/abilities.
It looks like Know:Local checks are the easiest way to find out specific abilities. Apparently the entire community knows more about you than can be determined by the shape of your skull or by magically inspecting a drop of your blood. Who knew? Everyone. Everyone knew, apparently.
| Azothath |
Occult Skill Unlock: Phrenology lists the Know:Arcana DC's to determine...
Pal: boy, I'm sore and tired from slaughtering all those monsters in scene two.
Bard: hey, there a massage shop! let's all go get a relaxing massage at the place showing the head getting massaged.GM: *grin*
| VoodistMonk |
VoodistMonk wrote:Occult Skill Unlock: Phrenology lists the Know:Arcana DC's to determine...Pal: boy, I'm sore and tired from slaughtering all those monsters in scene two.
Bard: hey, there a massage shop! let's all go get a relaxing massage at the place showing the head getting massaged.
GM: *grin*
I thought about the scalp massage route, but settled for more of a Sweeney Todd vibe and went with barber for my head hunter Kasatha Phrenologist Bard. J'onn plays a golden fiddle he won in Georgia, and likes to admire the shape of your skull as he cuts your hair. J'onn is fascinated that everyone else has such wierdly shaped heads...
| VoodistMonk |
The Wizard knows there is a Fighter with a Bardiche 10' away from himself... being within the Fighter's reach, the Wizard decides to cast a spell defensively...
Is the Wizard aware the Fighter has Disruptive/Spellbreaker?
Does the Fighter have to do anything special for these abilities to be active?
Or does the Fighter with Disruptive/Spellbreaker look exactly like the Fighter holding a Bardiche that does NOT have Disruptive/Spellbreaker?
For what it's worth, I have never had anyone using Disruptive do anything special. They aren't calling the Wizard names or spitting on him to make casting harder. They aren't menacing their sword in the Wizard's face. By them simply being near the Wizard, the Wizard experiences static in their mind. As if the very fabric of your magic comes unraveled near someone with Disruptive.
| DeathlessOne |
The way I look at the situation is this: No, the wizard/caster does not know the attempt will be more difficult before attempting the casting. Casting the spell in combat requires intense concentration that is split between avoiding the harmful bits of the opponents weapons and the intricate movements needed to cast the spell.
Much of combat happens in the background of the mechanics. Your attack roll does not just simulate the ONLY attacks you make against the creature, but potentially the ONE attack that managed to get through the targets defenses. The caster is trying to AVOID all those others (and if he doesn't, that is where the attack of opportunity manages to score a hit. Not because it was an 'extra' attacks but it was one of the attacks that got through).
So, to simplify that: The caster finds the constant pressure from those 'background' attacks much more difficult to ignore, as they make the attempt to cast the spell. It is just HARDER to avoid those close strikes.
| Azothath |
Advice: We are talking a possible extra attack on the first round when threatening a spellcaster. This feat path is over specialized AND as the game goes past 12th level the feat will see little use (spellcaster's don't expose themselves to melee combat) so a character should retrain out of it. Feat usefulness=(Validity * Relevance / Work) or (est usage per encounter * effect / feat cost{=1 or 2 if second in chain}). A fighter taking feats to get AoOs on spellcasters... hmmm... seems like they should take them down normally. I think feats vs melee combatants might be more useful.
EX: fer instance, I built and played a Monk2/Wizard(diviner)6+ in PFS with Call of the Void{V}3 with Step-up which is quite effective at stopping the vast majority of spellcasters. He was based loosely on FR Mage-killers. I didn't run into a bunch of spellcasters in PFS scenarios but I did have some fun <eg>. I was annoyed that tonfa didn't come with monk weapon proficiencies and being PFS there was no solution... Yes - spellcasters seeing I didn't have a weapon in hand might try to cast anyway, only to discover I am THE weapon {with bad-touch spells}.