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I love the scenes where the hero jumps onto the big enemy and lands on its back and then stabs it with full power while the enemy attempts to make the hero falls to the ground.
My question is: What rules i need to looking for in order to recreate these scenes?
I already know how jumps and falls work in pf2e so i'd like to know what happens once i land on a creature?
Examples: What action the enemey can do in order to make me fall? What actions do i need to know in order to stay strong on the enemy's back or whatever? Can i use a two hands attacks? Is the enemy flat-footed?
I'd like to know your thoughts!
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I'd look for the Homebrew forum for this (which I've flagged for), but my answers, regardless:
I'd say Athletics to start it up, probably based on their Fort DC. From there, it shaking you off would be similar to Escape. For staying on it, I'd say Acrobatics or Athletics, depending on what you want. Whether you'd be able to use a two-handed attack depends on what you're trying to do, and it'd probably be flat-footed.
If you're instead looking for how to accomplish something similar within the rules, my answers are similar. Athletics to Grapple, Escape action to shake you off, you cannot use two-hand attacks (or anything with that other hand, would be my general ruling), and the enemy would be flat-footed.
The dogslicer (with perhaps a gymnast swashbuckler) would probably be my setup of choice.
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I let a character do that in one of my campaigns. In this case is was a dragon flying over a pit of magma, the party was on ledges above the pit and roughly the same elevation of the dragon.
Fighter wanted to long jump on to the dragons back; used normal leap/long jump rules to adjudicate that part. I also required an reflex save on landing there.
Once there I said he's flat footed; and would need another reflex save/acrobatics check each round he's on the dragons back; and each time the dragon does something trying to dislodge him. I'd give bonuses to that check/skip the check if the PC did something designed to make it easier -- grabbing onto a horn/spin, lashing himself to a horn/spine, stabbing a weapon in to use as an anchor, etc. Most options required giving up a free hand in order .... but if they wanted to tie themselves to the dragon in some way that made sense, and risk being unable to jump off easily if the dragon does something odd (submerge in magma, fly away from the battle, etc).
It worked pretty well, the player was ready for/prepared for (but not necessarily wanting) an epic death for their character, but ended up surviving (had an exceptionally good lucky streak of rolls). IIRC he stay on the back for 1.5 turns or so before jumping off to a ledge on an opposite side of the lake from the party.
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Think about how difficult bull riding is, eight seconds is a good time and it uses all of your attention (and theirs, so there's that).
Now amplify that with a monster instead and no gear and no prep time, though you might have a clown in the party to distract the beast once you fall.
I've allowed it before in special, "rule of cool" circumstances and this being heroic fantasy, but I can't recall it ever ending well for the PC. The one that sticks out most in my mind was a grell floating upward in a crevice and a monk leapt on it then pounded it to death. Oops. I allowed for the monk to float down on the corpse rather than die, yet at the bottom the crevice far worse monsters awaited.
With the monk I used grapple, which I think would be the best route except PCs w/ their hands full would get excluded. I think I'd put this ability in feat territory, though maybe as a Skill Feat for Athletics rather than a class feat (though maybe a Barbarian/Fighter feat might be work.)
The feat might allow grappling/riding of creatures a certain size larger than you if you have your hands full and a piercing/slashing weapon.
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If I can be indulged some homebrew, I made some feats a while back. I think these mechanics would work just fine without the feats, if you just made them a baseline part of the rules.
MONSTER SURFING FEAT 2
Prerequisites expert in Acrobatics
If you find yourself on top of a creature, such as by successfully leaping or climbing onto it, you may treat it as uneven ground. When you roll to Balance or Maintain Balance, use the creature’s Acrobatics DC. The creature may use an action to try and shake you off by rolling Athletics or Acrobatics against your Acrobatics DC. This situation otherwise works like Combat Climber in regards to penalizing the creature’s attacks against you, sharing its space, or the creature attempting to crush you. Should you fall or be dislodged and have the Combat Climber feat, you may be able to make a Grab Edge reaction, unless the creature critically succeeding on dislodging you.
Critical Failures to Strike you while you are balancing or clinging to a creature must be rerolled as Strikes against the creature.
MONSTER CLIMBER FEAT 1
Prerequisites trained in Athletics
In addition as an expert, when you attempt to Grapple a creature at least one size larger than you, you can roll against the target’s Reflex DC instead of Fortitude DC. If you do so, the creature doesn’t become grabbed, but you instead cling to the creature. You share its space and move when it moves, and the creature takes a -2 circumstance penalty to attacks against you. The monster can dislodge you with an Escape as per a normal Grapple. You may Climb the monster as though it were an incline by rolling athletics against its Reflex DC, modified by appropriate circumstances.
At your GM’s discretion, the creature may be flat-footed against you and you may be treated as out of reach by some of the creature’s attacks, depending where on the creature you cling. For example, if you climb up to the back of the head of a huge or larger dragon, you can stab at its face to reflect its flat-footed condition, and it couldn’t reach you with its bite or breath weapon.
The creature can try to use its weight to crush you by dropping prone or otherwise use the environment to damage you, dealing the damage from whichever one of its unarmed strikes the GM deems appropriate. A reflex save against the creature’s acrobatics DC lets you release your grip and avoid that damage, but may result in you falling.
I love the scenes where the hero jumps onto the big enemy and lands on its back and then stabs it with full power while the enemy attempts to make the hero falls to the ground.
My question is: What rules i need to looking for in order to recreate these scenes?
I already know how jumps and falls work in pf2e so i'd like to know what happens once i land on a creature?
Examples: What action the enemey can do in order to make me fall? What actions do i need to know in order to stay strong on the enemy's back or whatever? Can i use a two hands attacks? Is the enemy flat-footed?
I'd like to know your thoughts!
Athletics vs the creature's Reflex DC to get onto its back, assuming the creature is actively trying to avoid it happening. I'd give a -2 to the DC if they're flanking.
If the creature is unaware, a flat check (DC 5 if it not moving, 10 if it is moving, 15 if they're jumping off a cliff trying to land on its back while it's flying by or some shenanigans--use your judgement).
Staying on depends on the creature. If it can, it would try to grab them off, so I'd make it a Grapple, but the rider can use Fort (fight off the grab) or Reflex (shift around to avoid it) DC. I'd make the rider use their Reaction each round to hold on.
Otherwise an Athletics/STR vs. Fortitude DC to try to buck them off. Trying to buck them off can be part of a move action, treating it as difficult terrain.
Or the creature can just try to rub the PC off against a wall as part of its move, and the PC has to make a flat Fort (hang on and take like, d6 damage?) or Reflex (shift around to avoid the wall) check to stay on.
If they're knocked off, they take xd12 fall damage, where x=the number of size steps they are smaller than the creature. So a medium rider v. a gargantuan creature would take 3d12 damage? I'm just spitballing on that one.
I think I remember reading a feat that let you climb up a monster using knives. Sounds very god of war like. Maybe it was in the APG? Having a hard time tracking it down, maybe I misremembered.
I think I remember reading a feat that let you climb up a monster using knives. Sounds very god of war like. Maybe it was in the APG? Having a hard time tracking it down, maybe I misremembered.
I think it lets you climb mwapps with knives, not monsters. Monster climbing is weirdly absent from the rules but not hard to house rule in.
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There is a feat in D&D 3.5's Complete Warrior that allowed you to pull stuff off like this, called
You are trained in fighting foes larger than you are.
Prerequisite
Tumble 5 ranks, base attack bonus +6, Medium or smaller size,
Benefit
The Giantbane feat enables the use of three tactical maneuvers.
Duck Underneath: To use this maneuver, you must have taken a total defense action, then have been attacked by a foe at least two size categories larger than you. You gain a +4 dodge bonus to your Armor Class, which stacks with the bonus for total defense. If that foe misses you, on your next turn, as a free action, you may make a DC 15 Tumble check. If the check succeeds, you move immediately to any unoccupied square on the opposite side of the foe (having successfully ducked underneath your foe). If there is no unoccupied square on the opposite side of the foe or you fail the Tumble check, you remain in the square you are in and have failed to duck underneath your foe.
Death from Below: To use this maneuver, you must have successfully used the duck underneath maneuver. You may make an immediate single attack against the foe you ducked underneath. That foe is treated as flat-footed, and you gain a +4 bonus on your attack roll.
Climb Aboard: To use this maneuver, you must move adjacent to a foe at least two size categories larger than you. In the following round, you may make a DC 10 Climb check as a free action to clamber onto the creature's back or limbs (you move into one of the squares the creature occupies). The creature you're standing on takes a -4 penalty on attack rolls against you, because it can strike at you only awkwardly. If the creature moves during its action, you move along with it. The creature can try to shake you off by making a grapple check opposed by your Climb check. If the creature succeeds, you wind up in a random adjacent square.
Special
A fighter may select Giantbane as one of his fighter bonus feats.
Shame that something like this never cameback around in Pathfinder, as far as I know.
PF1 had a rogue archetype that could climb Giants called the vexing dodger IIRC.
PF1 had a rogue archetype that could climb Giants called the vexing dodger IIRC.
Indeed, Joe O'Brian plays just such a rogue, Dalgreath Deathbringer, on the Glass Cannon Podcast.
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I've done a little bit of this, and started outlining work on (but put aside) some homebrew rules for it. Basically I converted the monsters into hazards, but they needed to be at least huge sized to help keep up suspension of disbelief. Mostly I just used gargantuan creatures anyways.
Athletics check to "board" the creature, like a vehicle. Then, because the player is climbing, I ported in climbing rules. Some monsters were master climbing (really scaly ones, or things that are rocky, etc.), some were legendary if I couldn't come up with a reason for them to have various handholds (clothing, protrusions). If it seemed like the thing could be walked on like a level surface once it was scaled I used acrobatics rules to maintain balance. Basically just staying on the monster required at least an action.
Then I separated the monster into thirds: limbs, torso/body, head. Limbs were hardest to stay on because they're easiest to thrash, then head, then body. I gave each portion its own sort of "buck off" action as part of the hazard's routine each round, which was basically just an Escape check with a different modifier.
Different parts of the monster had different hitpoints and ways to attack them or "disable" the hazard. They also had different abilities to attack players who might be climbing the monster. For initiative, the monster hazard went right after the monster itself--anyone not climbing on it still had to deal with it in combat, but anyone climbing on it wasn't subject to its regular attacks. Since these were all going to be gigantic boss battle things anyways, splitting it this way seemed appropriate.
Once a part of the hazard was dealt with it basically took off a chunk of hp from the monster itself (top/middle/bottom third of hp) and had some status effect. I had intended to make the hazard portion really difficult to do, and require at least master athletics (legendary is probably more reasonable, but if we want to have fun...) because a lucky couple turns could do a huge amount.
Lot of work, but I think if I got around to making a monster hazard template/builder that would make it easy to slot in whatever monster you chose and fill in abilities and stats.