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So I’m making a minor noble in our agents of edgewatch game (using political scion background). I’m gonna pick up additional lord at level two related to knowing the nobility of Absolom. Would that be (Heraldry, Geneology, or Absolom) Lore? I imagine Geneology is more related to knowing bloodlines, heraldry is more related to flags and holdings and such, and Absolom is limited to nobility within Absolom (so, like if a Nobel likes to vacation in Diobel I wouldn’t know). What is everyone’s advice for the skill a noble would have to know the latest jucy gossip and happenings in the nobility?
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I'd go for either "Absalom" lore or "Genealogy".
With Genealogy, you know all the juicy gossip about who is cousin to whom, who is the unacknowledged child of what noble, and a lot of other family secrets.
But for AoE, I think Absalom lore would serve you best.
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Your best bet is to talk with your GM to make sure they're on the same page as to what exactly your Lore is intended to do. For me, if I wanted to have a focus on courtly intrigue I'd likely call it Lore (Politics).
And yes, Society does absolutely cover this, though naturally there's still the advantage of having a more specific Lore skill for a lower DC on checks.
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How about Lore: Nobility?
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How about Lore: Nobility?
Like in the Noble background?
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How about Lore: Nobility?Like in the Noble background?
Well, maybe if the Noble Background didn't give Genealogy Lore skill or Heraldry Lore skill. ;)
Well, maybe if the Noble Background didn't give Genealogy Lore skill or Heraldry Lore skill. ;)How about Lore: Nobility?Like in the Noble background?
Derp.
How about Lore: Nobility?
This is a problem with the way Lore is handled in Second Edition. It is intended to be much more narrow and focused than Knowledge was in First Edition.
This can cause significant consternation when converting material from 1st edition (characters/traits/adventures/etc.).
It also creates a few other issues.
* - Characters normally only have one Lore in PF 2E, and have two at most. PF 1E characters could have several (PF 1E Bards, Wizards, and the like often did have multiple Knowledges.)
* - The PF 1E Profession has also been folded into Lore which compounds the problem above.
* - This also makes it more difficult, as both Player and GM, to evaluate the relative value of different Lore skills.
* - As a GM, this also creates an issue for determining what skill/lore should be used for identifying encountered creatures.
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How about Lore: Nobility?This is a problem with the way Lore is handled in Second Edition. It is intended to be much more narrow and focused than Knowledge was in First Edition.
This can cause significant consternation when converting material from 1st edition (characters/traits/adventures/etc.).
It also creates a few other issues.
* - Characters normally only have one Lore in PF 2E, and have two at most. PF 1E characters could have several (PF 1E Bards, Wizards, and the like often did have multiple Knowledges.)
* - The PF 1E Profession has also been folded into Lore which compounds the problem above.
* - This also makes it more difficult, as both Player and GM, to evaluate the relative value of different Lore skills.
* - As a GM, this also creates an issue for determining what skill/lore should be used for identifying encountered creatures.
Not sure what the problem of Lore being narrower would be, nor why there'd be consternation when converting PF1 material (compared to typical conversion hiccups). Yes, there might be multiple skills required at times, and at other times multiple skills have been folded into one (likely more often). Since it's a skill-point system converting to a ranked system, it takes a fresh rebuild anyway. And with NPCs, there's no rigor anyway, as one can build them to suit the parameters of the story (and their CR, which in PF2 can differ between in-combat vs. in their specialty, i.e. a courtroom vs. a smart, weak lawyer).
-While I agree many PCs have one Lore, PCs often have other Recall Knowledge skills too, especially Wizards, who also are often advised to get campaign-themed Lore skills. I make it a point (at least for PFS builds) to have several Recall Knowledge skills, and with Wis-based ones, low-Int PCs can be decent at them too unlike in PF1.
-Not sure how the Profession inclusion compounds anything. IMO that makes Lore more useful than Prof. was in PF1 (where I hardly saw much investment except w/ spare skill points for flavor or for Sailor because of its hidden value).
-The PF1 Knowledge skills had the same difficulty in evaluating their relative values. Some might never arise while others might be pivotal to bypassing many obstacles. Not sure why two adults can't discuss and determine what's worthwhile in session zero.
-Not sure why a GM would have more issues than in PF1 w/ which skill(s) ID which creatures. There's a baseline roll by creature type, plus multiple skills might be appropriate, i.e. for a Ghost Fey Wizard with noble blood you might use lots of options, with the learned info suiting which skill was rolled. And the closer one's Lore is to that specific creature, the lower the DC. Seems as simple as PF1 IMO, with a viable route to being a specialist.
So yeah, I'm not grokking. Maybe I'm missing something?
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This is a problem with the way Lore is handled in Second Edition. It is intended to be much more narrow and focused than Knowledge was in First Edition.This can cause significant consternation when converting material from 1st edition (characters/traits/adventures/etc.).
I think directly comparing PF1 Knowledge and PF2 Lore is a bit of a mistake. Lore is a bottomless pit of potential skills, and designed to be cheaper to invest in. Lore is more like an analog for the Profession skill, just with the idea of using it as an alternative to existing skills being embedded a little deeper into the system.
If you're simply directly converting knowledge skills, it makes more sense to look at... PF2's core knowledge skills. Which makes the comparison much simpler.
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Okay, let's see. Pathfinder 1st Edition has 10 knowledge skills
* - Knowledge(Arcane) - becomes Arcana's "Recall Knowledge"
* - Knowledge(History) - becomes part of Society's "Recall Knowledge"
* - Knowledge(Local) - becomes part of Society's "Recall Knowledge"
* - Knowledge(Nature) - becomes Nature's "Recall Knowledge"
* - Knowledge(Nobility) - becomes part of Society's "Recall Knowledge"
* - Knowledge(Religion) - becomes Religion's "Recall Knowledge"
That leaves:
* - Knowledge(Dungeoneering)
* - Knowledge(Engineering)
* - Knowledge(Geography)
* - Knowledge(Planes)
That need direct replacement.
So, perhaps I need was to better work out how/when to apply existing skills.
* - Characters normally only have one Lore in PF 2E, and have two at most. PF 1E characters could have several (PF 1E Bards, Wizards, and the like often did have multiple Knowledges.)
It is certainly more common to only have one Lore skill.
It is also possible to have no Lore skill - not every Background gives one.
It is also possible to be given more than two Lore skills through Background, Ancestry, and General feats.
Also, I think you can simply put a skill boost into a Lore skill if you feel the desire.
But with all of that said, the Lore skills are not a complete equivalent to the knowledge skills of PF1. Much of the functionality of the knowledge skills was wrapped into the Recall Knowledge skill action - which generally is covered by just Arcana, Nature, Occultism, Religion, or Society, and maybe Crafting. Lore skills can also cover Recall Knowledge, but for limited scope.
So the basic Knowledge (nobility) would be a Recall Knowledge (Society) check. If you have Lore (nobility) then you would make the check at a reduced DC and could perhaps get more detailed information.
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The confusion is that some of these got kind of split up in the process.
Dungeoneering covers aberrations, oozes, caverns, and spelunking.
Aberrations and oozes are firmly part of Occultism as outlined here, while caverns probably fit under Nature.
Engineering is largely subsumed by Crafting's Recall Knowledge (which specifically calls out engineering), however Society may also be a suitable choice for cultural aspects of architecture (arguably covered by Local and History in PF1 anyways).
Geography is mostly within the purview of Nature which calls out geography, weather, and environmental factors described by Geography. The 'people' part of Geography probably goes to Society though.
Planes is the most heavily butchered in this transition, split between Arcane (Elemental, Astral Shadow), Nature (Elemental, First World), Occult (Positive, Negative, Shadow, Astral, Ethereal), and Religion (all of the aligned Outer Planes, as well as Positive and Negative).
Trying to build a Planar expert requires a massive expenditure of resources, which is probably the biggest shift here.
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Trying to build a Planar expert requires a massive expenditure of resources, which is probably the biggest shift here.
Probably best to pick up Lore (Planes). That should cover the Recall Knowledge of Planes that the other skills would give, but maybe not the creature identification of creatures that have a planar trait but aren't heavily tied to that plane in particular.
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On the flip side, having my character take additional lore in Xulgaths for an extinction curse campaign was an awesome, single feat investment that made them very good at a common recalling of knowledge for a very low cost.
Maybe a lot of players don’t do it, but specific lores can even be retrained in PF2 and are a good way to represent characters spending some down time preparing for the specific kinds of challenges an environment might present.
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How about Lore: Nobility?This is a problem with the way Lore is handled in Second Edition. It is intended to be much more narrow and focused than Knowledge was in First Edition.
This can cause significant consternation when converting material from 1st edition (characters/traits/adventures/etc.).
It also creates a few other issues.
* - Characters normally only have one Lore in PF 2E, and have two at most. PF 1E characters could have several (PF 1E Bards, Wizards, and the like often did have multiple Knowledges.)
* - The PF 1E Profession has also been folded into Lore which compounds the problem above.
* - This also makes it more difficult, as both Player and GM, to evaluate the relative value of different Lore skills.
* - As a GM, this also creates an issue for determining what skill/lore should be used for identifying encountered creatures.
PF2 also has the standard knowledge skills, though: Arcana, Nature, Occultism, Religion, Society, and sometimes Crafting. Everything is supposed to fall into those six (seven? I feel like I'm missing one) categories. Lore gives you more knowledge over a specific subset.
You don't even need to worry about them being equally valuable. First of all, they're less of an investment anyway compared to standard skills. Secondly... say Anna's has Lore: Category Bob has Lore: Specific Thing in that Category. Blatantly unfair, right? Not necessarily. Anna's comes up more often, giving her broader expertise. Within Bob's subset, he gets to use lower DCs making him more knowledgeable within his specialty. It works out even in this most blatant case.
Probably best to pick up Lore (Planes).
I suspect that's probably beyond the intended scope of a Lore skill.
I think Lore (single plane) would probably be more appropriate.
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On the flip side, having my character take additional lore in Xulgaths for an extinction curse campaign was an awesome, single feat investment that made them very good at a common recalling of knowledge for a very low cost.
Maybe a lot of players don’t do it, but specific lores can even be retrained in PF2 and are a good way to represent characters spending some down time preparing for the specific kinds of challenges an environment might present.
Abilities that allow you to be Trained in a Skill for a day are awesome for Lores. Especially in PFS.
