Transformative Sun Blade Weapon

[Starocious]

What happens if a character has their Sun Blade enchanted with the transformative magic weapon property?

Sun Blade Magic Weapon wrote:

This sword is the size of a bastard sword. However, a sun blade is wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use. In other words, the weapon appears to all viewers to be a bastard sword, and deals bastard sword damage, but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword. Any individual able to use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a sun blade. Likewise, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in short sword and bastard sword apply equally, but the benefits of those feats do not stack.

If it is turned into another weapon by transformative:

1: Is it still "wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use"?

2: Does it still "appear to all viewers to be a bastard sword"?

3: Does it still deal bastard sword damage? Does this include critical multiplier? Does it include damage type (B/P/S)?

4: Do you only need proficiency in the bastard sword or short sword to wield it with proficiency?

5: Does weapon focus for either short sword or bastard sword apply to the attacks with it?

Transformative causes any abilities that are "prohibited by its current shape" to cease to function, but I dont know which, if any of these would fall under that category.

[vhok]

i don't think you can add properties to unique weapons, of course the Gm can allow it but then you'll have to ask him how he wants to rule those questions.

[avr]

My own rulings would be no all round. If you have a heavy mace (for example) which weighs and moves like a short sword it just won't work so for transformative to work it has to switch off, and all the rest are properties which are associated with its base shape and not anything else it might have been transformed into.

[Starocious]

vhok wrote:

i don't think you can add properties to unique weapons, of course the Gm can allow it but then you'll have to ask him how he wants to rule those questions.

Really? The games ive played in always allow it so I didn't even think to question it. Do you have a source for that?

I admittedly dont mind if the answers to all the questions asked were "no" because i mainly just want the sun blade's double damage against undead effect, but I hadn't even considered not being able to add the transformative enhancement to it.

[Belafon]

Most campaigns don't allow crafting additional properties onto unique weapons. Mainly because it's impossible to separate which of the properties are +bonus equivalents and which are fixed costs. So you don't know how much adding, say, holy should cost.

Sun Blade:

The pricing really strongly suggests it counts as a +5 equivalent masterwork bastard sword. But it is possible that it is +4 with a 14,000 gp property or some other combination. There's no way to tell from the text.

Having said that, transformative is a fixed cost property so it actually is possible to know what the cost should be. If your GM allows it, it's easy to price.

[Lelomenia]

If it had been +1 or whatever instead of fixed cost, there would have been need to be able to answer this, as Fighters and Occultists would have been able to add it through class features. That may be part of the reasoning behind fixed costing; lots of unique weapons turn to rules mush under transformative.

[TxSam88]

Starocious wrote:

vhok wrote:

i don't think you can add properties to unique weapons, of course the Gm can allow it but then you'll have to ask him how he wants to rule those questions.

Really? The games ive played in always allow it so I didn't even think to question it. Do you have a source for that?

I admittedly dont mind if the answers to all the questions asked were "no" because i mainly just want the sun blade's double damage against undead effect, but I hadn't even considered not being able to add the transformative enhancement to it.

yep, I've never played in a game that allowed it.

[Dragonchess Player]

Note this is mostly IMO and RAI.

Starocious wrote:

What happens if a character has their Sun Blade enchanted with the transformative magic weapon property?

Sun Blade Magic Weapon wrote:

This sword is the size of a bastard sword. However, a sun blade is wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use. In other words, the weapon appears to all viewers to be a bastard sword, and deals bastard sword damage, but the wielder feels and reacts as if the weapon were a short sword. Any individual able to use either a bastard sword or a short sword with proficiency is proficient in the use of a sun blade. Likewise, Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization in short sword and bastard sword apply equally, but the benefits of those feats do not stack.

If it is turned into another weapon by transformative:

1: Is it still "wielded as if it were a short sword with respect to weight and ease of use"?

2: Does it still "appear to all viewers to be a bastard sword"?

I would go with "closest equivalent weapon pairs." For example, hand axe/dwarven waraxe, kukri/falcata, light hammer/warhammer, light mace/heavy mace, wakizashi/katana, etc. This would allow a one-handed weapon form (transformative does not allow changing of a weapon's handedness; a bastard sword is a one-handed exotic weapon) to be treated as if it were a light weapon (similar to effortless lace) and use feats applicable to the equivalent light weapon in the pair.

Starocious wrote:

3: Does it still deal bastard sword damage? Does this include critical multiplier? Does it include damage type (B/P/S)?

A transformative weapon does damage based on the form it is in, to include critical range/multiplier and damage type. Against Negative Energy Plane creatures or undead creatures, the weapon will do double damage for the form it is in and increase the critical multiplier of its current form by one (x2 to x3, x3 to x4, or x4 to x5).

Starocious wrote:

4: Do you only need proficiency in the bastard sword or short sword to wield it with proficiency?

See "closest equivalent weapon pairs" above.

Starocious wrote:

5: Does weapon focus for either short sword or bastard sword apply to the attacks with it?

See "closest equivalent weapon pairs" above.

Starocious wrote:

Transformative causes any abilities that are "prohibited by its current shape" to cease to function, but I dont know which, if any of these would fall under that category.

For the base sun blade abilities, there shouldn't be anything that would be affected. However, something like a keen weapon effect (from the spell, a scabbard of keen edges, keen added using magus arcane pool, etc.) would no longer apply if the transformative weapon is in hammer or mace form.

[Dragonchess Player]

If you just want a specific one-handed weapon with the abilities of a sun blade ask the GM to use a different one-handed weapon for the item instead of bastard sword (and the "closest equivalent" light weapon in place of short sword for the abilities) and change the market price to 50,300 gp + weapon price.

[TxSam88]

I imagine what the OP is wanting is the ability to have the stats of a bastard sword that can be wielded one handed, and then transform into other weapons to overcome various DR's

an easy way to do this is to buy a magical bastard sword with the transformative enchantment on it and then apply effortless lace. I imagine the light/good effect isn't really desired.

[ErichAD]

I think transformative overwrites both the short sword and broad sword behaviors of the weapon. Since it would normally make a weapon look, handle and do damage like the new weapon, it should still do so.

That said, I'd let it change all bastard sword aspects of the weapon because that's more fun. 10k for some weapon flexibility isn't a great deal.

[Starocious]

TxSam88 wrote:

I imagine what the OP is wanting is the ability to have the stats of a bastard sword that can be wielded one handed, and then transform into other weapons to overcome various DR's

an easy way to do this is to buy a magical bastard sword with the transformative enchantment on it and then apply effortless lace. I imagine the light/good effect isn't really desired.

Starocious wrote:

I admittedly dont mind if the answers to all the questions asked were "no" because i mainly just want the sun blade's double damage against undead effect

A bastard sword is already one handed if you have proficiency, and if i wanted what you think i wanted i'd just pick up the weapon versatility feat.

Anyway, there are some people referring to sun blades as unique magic weapons. Do they mean specific magic weapons, because I'm pretty sure they aren't unique and you can make and wield more than one?

Also a while ago I asked if anyone could link the source for not being able to apply fixed cost enhancements to specific magic items. Anyone able to do that for me so I can read it myself?

[vhok]

it doesn't say you 100% can't. it just talks about how hard it can be to price and alot of GM's don't want the math headache and just flat say no(which is what i have always seen them say). as you want to add a flat cost enchant and not a +1 cost enchant it should be ok. but the GM can still say no altering specific magic items.

magic item creation

Adding more magic to an existing item can be quite simple or very math-intensive. If the item's current and proposed abilities follow the normal pricing rules (particularly with weapons, armor, and shields), adding the new abilities is a matter of subtracting the old price from the new price and determining how many days of crafting it takes to make up the difference.

Example: Patrick's wizard decides to use his downtime to increase the armor bonus on his bracers of armor +1 to +3. The price difference between the two types of bracers is 8,000 gp, so Patrick's wizard must spend 8 days and 4,000 gp (half the 8,000 gp price difference) upgrading his bracers' magic. If he has fewer than 8 days before the next adventure, he'll need to finish his crafting while traveling or use accelerated crafting in town to speed up the process.

For most other items, GMs should use the multiple different abilities rule to determine the item's new price: increase the cost of the new ability by 50%, add that to the total price of the item to get the new price. Then subtract the old price from the new price to determine the difference, and determine how many days of crafting it takes to cover the difference.

Example: Lisa's paladin has horseshoes of a zephyr and wants to hire Patrick's wizard to add the powers of horseshoes of speed to her current horseshoes. Their GM, Jessica, decides that this is a suitable item and tells Lisa and Patrick they can proceed. The price of horseshoes of speed is 3,000 gp, increased by 50% for the multiple different abilities rule to 4,500 gp. Patrick's wizard must spend 5 days and Lisa's paladin must pay 2,250 gp (half the 4,500 gp price difference) to add the new property to the horseshoes, resulting in an item worth 10,500 gp (6,000 gp originally + 4,500 gp for the new property).

For specific magic armor and weapons, the price for the base item may be hard to determine, as some abilities may have been priced as plus-based properties and some as gp-based properties. Without knowing which is which, how to increase the price (using the plus-based table or flat gp addition) can't be determined. If this happens and nobody can agree on a fair price, it's best to not upgrade the item, or ask the GM for permission to pseudo-upgrade the item by swapping it for a different item with a price that can be calculated with the normal rules.

Example: Lisa's paladin has a holy avenger that she wants to upgrade with the flaming special ability. A holy avenger has a price of 120,630 gp, but when not in the hands of a paladin, it functions as a +5 holy cold iron longsword, which has a price of 100,630 gp. The 20,000 gp difference in the prices of these two possible base weapons includes the sword's spell resistance, greater dispel magic once per round, and the limitation that the extra powers don't work for non-paladins. Jessica and Lisa talk about pricing ideas for a while, but can't figure out a fair way to price the upgrade. Lisa decides to upgrade her character's armor instead.

The multiple similar abilities rule is specifically for items that don't use a magic item slot (such as staves), and can't be used for items that do use a magic item slot. The existing staves in the Core Rulebook all use this rule for pricing the cost of their spells. When adding abilities to these items, remember that they're priced with the highest-level spell at 100% of the normal cost, the next-highest at 75%, and all others at 50%, which means that adding a new spell that's between the lowest and highest spell level can alter the cost of the other abilities in the item. Increasing the number of charges required for an ability also affects the cost of that ability (see Creating Staves). Because staff pricing is so complex, a GM might want to forbid adding new abilities to staves, or limit new abilities to the lowest-level spell already present in the item.

[Starocious]

Ok, so there is no RAW to state you cant, just that if there's any doubt in the maths your GM can say no. Given that transformative is a fixed price the maths becomes simple addition so I shouldn't have any trouble asking my GM to allow it.

If there's no clear ruling on the questions I asked i'll just ask my GM what he thinks is best but probably suggest ignoring the whole first paragraph of sun blade while transformed. It means not dealing d10 damage die but if it simplifies everything that's fine.

[Lelomenia]

Starocious wrote:

Ok, so there is no RAW to state you cant, just that if there's any doubt in the maths your GM can say no. Given that transformative is a fixed price the maths becomes simple addition so I shouldn't have any trouble asking my GM to allow it.

If there's no clear ruling on the questions I asked i'll just ask my GM what he thinks is best but probably suggest ignoring the whole first paragraph of sun blade while transformed. It means not dealing d10 damage die but if it simplifies everything that's fine.

if you are willing to forego any relevance of paragraph 1 to sunblade in transformed state, i don’t think there’s any reason not to allow it.

[Diego Rossi]

Starocious wrote:

Also a while ago I asked if anyone could link the source for not being able to apply fixed cost enhancements to specific magic items. Anyone able to do that for me so I can read it myself?

What the rule says is slightly different.

Any magic items that aren't printed on the books or can't be made by following the rules to choose weapon powers are the territory of the GM, that can allow or disallow it.
Specific weapons and armors can't be made following the standard rules for enchanting weapons and armors, so modifying them requires GM evaluation and permission.