I know I can't put ranks into fly before I have a way of flying, but I plan on taking graceful flier as soon as I get a fly speed, so getting the skill focus prerequisite out of the way early sounds like a good plan.
Can I technically select skill focus fly before I have a means of flight?
I can't see anything by RAW that would prevent it but I might have missed something.
Nothing RAW prevents it, but I bet a decent number of GMs will say no.
Edit: I'd look at retraining to help with the timing.
Well, you could try to convince the GM by pointing out that the early Skill Focus (Fly) won't do anything for you for at least one level. That seems to be a fair (rather: steep) price for picking up Graceful Flier earlier.
I would allow you to take the feat before you have a way of flying. It could be justified by stating you practiced imagining flying to such a degree you gained the skill focus.
Skill Focus doesn't require any ranks in the skill in order to take it. Should be fine to take it early. It would just represent a particular skill you are naturally adept at, even before you realized it.
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Graceful Flier
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Fly), fly speed.
Benefit: You are a gifted flier. While wearing light or no armor, your fly speed increases by 5 feet and your maneuverability is one step better than normal, to a maximum of good. You lose the benefits of this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.
Special: While the following feats are primarily taken by strix, other creatures with natural wings can also take them at the GM's discretion.
Getting Graceful Flier can be a problem. It doesn't require to be capable to fly with a fly spell. It requires a fly speed.
Having a fly (or climb, swim, etc.) speed requires having it as one of the stat of your character, not as the result of a spell you cast occasionally.You are a member of a race that can get wings? Or a druid (most GM would allow it for druids when they can transform in a form that can fly)?
Graceful Flier
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Fly), fly speed.
Benefit: You are a gifted flier. While wearing light or no armor, your fly speed increases by 5 feet and your maneuverability is one step better than normal, to a maximum of good. You lose the benefits of this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.
Special: While the following feats are primarily taken by strix, other creatures with natural wings can also take them at the GM's discretion.
Getting Graceful Flier can be a problem. It doesn't require to be capable to fly with a fly spell. It requires a fly speed.
Having a fly (or climb, swim, etc.) speed requires having it as one of the stat of your character, not as the result of a spell you cast occasionally.
You are a member of a race that can get wings? Or a druid (most GM would allow it for druids when they can transform in a form that can fly)?
Angel wings Aasimar, so I'd assume I'm good / as good as I can be with the clause of "at GM's discretion"?
Not to be contrary for the sake of it, but it doesn't require a non-spell fly speed, just a fly speed. Any spell that grants you a fly speed gives you a fly speed. Why would you think otherwise? (If it's a matter of duration, overland flight lasts just as long as a druid turning into something that can fly, so I don't know why it'd be arbitrarily different.)
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Graceful Flier
Prerequisites: Skill Focus (Fly), fly speed.
Benefit: You are a gifted flier. While wearing light or no armor, your fly speed increases by 5 feet and your maneuverability is one step better than normal, to a maximum of good. You lose the benefits of this feat if you carry a medium or heavy load.
Special: While the following feats are primarily taken by strix, other creatures with natural wings can also take them at the GM's discretion.
Getting Graceful Flier can be a problem. It doesn't require to be capable to fly with a fly spell. It requires a fly speed.
Having a fly (or climb, swim, etc.) speed requires having it as one of the stat of your character, not as the result of a spell you cast occasionally.
You are a member of a race that can get wings? Or a druid (most GM would allow it for druids when they can transform in a form that can fly)?Angel wings Aasimar, so I'd assume I'm good / as good as I can be with the clause of "at GM's discretion"?
Not to be contrary for the sake of it, but it doesn't require a non-spell fly speed, just a fly speed. Any spell that grants you a fly speed gives you a fly speed. Why would you think otherwise? (If it's a matter of duration, overland flight lasts just as long as a druid turning into something that can fly, so I don't know why it'd be arbitrarily different.)
"A Fly (burrow, Climbing, Swimming) speed" has a specific meaning in Pathfinder 1 rules. It means having it in the creature profile. Most creatures can climb or swim, but only those with a listed speed in their stat block have a climbing or swimming speed.
An Aasimar with the Angel Wings feat has a fly speed: "Benefit: You gain a pair of gleaming feathered wings that grant a fly speed of 30 feet".
The Fly spell doesn't give a fly speed: "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet".
The way in which it is spelled makes a difference.
You can see better in the CRB when it speaks of climbing.
"With a successful Climb check, you can advance up, down, or across a slope, wall, or other steep inclines (or even across a ceiling, provided it has handholds) at one-quarter your normal speed."
"A creature with a climb speed has a +8 racial bonus on all Climb checks. The creature must make a Climb check to climb any wall or slope with a DC higher than 0, but it can always choose to take 10, even if rushed or threatened while climbing."
Being able to fly or climb or swim and having a flying, climbing, or swimming speed are different things.
It is one of those things that the developers take for granted as common knowledge, but it isn't at all.
Graceful Flier is not for creatures who have a fly speed for 1min/lvl per day, but rather its a feat for creatures with an inherent/permanent means of having a Fly speed (the feat itself specifically calls out being used by Strix primarily, but subject to GM discretion for other creatures with Fly speeds). So this is usually for creatures/characters with mundane wings or something similar, but I would also allow this feat for someone with a permanently-enchanted Fly spell. This is something you should discuss with your GM as a primary intention for this character though.
Anywho, as far as getting Skill Focus (Fly) before you have a Fly speed, this is fine in both RAW and RAI, but it should be explained somehow in your backstory because this is rather unique. You could say in your backstory that you worked as a Wings of Flying/Winged Boots Test Pilot, or you were a street rat who happened upon a Magic Carpet and used to take your girlfriend on dates with it (*sings* "a whole new woooooOOOORLD!"), or you used to sell Brooms of Flying on the Black Market and frequently flew on them prior to buying/selling them, or you had Harry Potter/Anakin Skywalker -like childhood with Quidditch/Pod Racing, except you used Brooms of Racing, or you were an adventurous inventor as an adolescent and crafted your own hang glider-like contraption, or you apprenticed with an Alchemist who had a penchant for brewing Potions of Fly. So as far as explaining *why* you would have Skill Focus Fly even though you don't actually have a Fly Speed, the sky is the limit. (<--- mind the awful dad joke).
Skill focus has no prerequisite so RAW there is nothing to prevent you from taking it without a means of flight. Skill focus could just as easily be a natural aptitude as something your learned. You don’t even need ranks in the skill to take it.
Skill focus has no prerequisite so RAW there is nothing to prevent you from taking it without a means of flight. Skill focus could just as easily be a natural aptitude as something your learned. You don’t even need ranks in the skill to take it.
Yeah, but you still have to satisfy this ----v requirement to even put ranks in the skill.
Special RequirementYou cannot take this skill without a natural means of flight or gliding. Creatures can also take ranks in Fly if they possess a reliable means of flying every day (either through a spell or other magical manner, such as a druid’s wild shape ability).
RAW, you only need to qualify for a feat a) when you select it and b) when you want to use it. There is nothing about temporary or permanent bonuses/effects in the relevant rules. Various devs have made contradicory statements, so there's no definite RAI.
Regarding Skill Focus, the feat has no prerequisites. It doesn't care about skill ranks, or about being able to use the skill. You can select Skill Focus with trained-only-skills that you have no ranks in and thus can't even use (unlike fly, which can be used untrained).
As for skill ranks and skill focus for fly. I don't think I would allow a character to get skill focus for fly until they gain some ability to fly.
I think it's very important for a GM to be consistent, here. If you say "Skill Focus? It doesn't say anything like that, but you need a daily, non-consumable source of flight to take it.", and then go on and say "What, Graceful Flier? No, a daily, non-consumable source of flight doesn't allow you to take it!", that would be a total dick move.
An Aasimar with the Angel Wings feat has a fly speed: "Benefit: You gain a pair of gleaming feathered wings that grant a fly speed of 30 feet".
The Fly spell doesn't give a fly speed: "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet".
The way in which it is spelled makes a difference.
No it doesn't. "Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed. If they didn’t apply to creatures that gained flight artificially or through magic, then those maneuverabilities (like the listed good maneuverability for the fly spell) would have no game effect." That FAQ lists the Fly spell as an example of non-natural means to aquire a fly speed. Further proof: Mythic Fly says "The fly speed changes to 120 feet".
The writers clearly make no difference between "fly speed" and "fly at a speed".
An Aasimar with the Angel Wings feat has a fly speed: "Benefit: You gain a pair of gleaming feathered wings that grant a fly speed of 30 feet".
The Fly spell doesn't give a fly speed: "The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet".
The way in which it is spelled makes a difference.No it doesn't. "Despite the fact that the Fly skill mentions that bonuses and penalties from maneuverability apply to creatures with natural fly speeds, they apply for any fly speed. If they didn’t apply to creatures that gained flight artificially or through magic, then those maneuverabilities (like the listed good maneuverability for the fly spell) would have no game effect." That FAQ lists the Fly spell as an example of non-natural means to aquire a fly speed. Further proof: Mythic Fly says "The fly speed changes to 120 feet".
The writers clearly make no difference between "fly speed" and "fly at a speed".
This is my understanding too and thought it was common knowledge. I think Diego is confusing things because climbing is not the same as having a climb speed and swimming is not the same as having a swim speed. As it stands the same is not true for fly speeds, because unlike climbing and swimming, flying isn't something anyone can attempt without first having a fly speed, such as what is granted by the fly spell or similar.
"Fly at a speed of 60" is just another way of saying "fly speed of 60". A quick search for "fly speed" reveals many spells that grant a fly speed, with spells like angelic aspect/greater even using the two terms interchangeably.
TLDR: Don't confuse the climb/swim rules with fly rules.
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Shrug.
Regardless, if you have a fly speed, Fly by attack is way more useful.
With a few ranks, you will make the fly checks easily.
Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
The ability to take any kind of action in the middle of the movement while flying, is extremely powerful, especially if you are making a spellcaster.
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Shrug.
Regardless, if you have a fly speed, Fly by attack is way more useful.
With a few ranks, you will make the fly checks easily.The ability to take any kind of action in the middle of the movement while flying, is extremely powerful, especially if you are making a spellcaster.Flyby Attack
This creature can make an attack before and after it moves while flying.
Prerequisite: Fly speed.
Benefit: When flying, the creature can take a move action and another standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack.
Normal: Without this feat, the creature takes a standard action either before or after its move.
(emphasis mine)
More like an additional standard action every round is amazing
More like an additional standard action every round is amazing
No. No. That's not how it works. It has been clarified multiple times by Devs.
Example, Example and it's probably FAQd as well...
It's just very poor wording/editing.
It likely used to say something like "take a move action and another action at any point during the move" before release, then got flagged for rewording to clarify the action type and the guy that "fixed" it was half asleep or got the wrong end of the stick.
It's just very poor wording/editing.
It likely used to say something like "take a move action and another action at any point during the move" before release, then got flagged for rewording to clarify the action type and the guy that "fixed" it was half asleep or got the wrong end of the stick.
Actually, the "another" is an artifact. In 3.0, Flyby Attack said "When flying, the creature can take a move action and another partial action at any point during the move". Back then, there was no actual stand-alone move action, both regular movement and move-equivalent actions were made as part of the standard action, which is what a character back then would have already spend in order to use the feat. The wording is certainly weird even in the 3.0 version, but since one normally didn't have a partial action, it worked out well enough, I presume. "Partial action" describes what in 3.5 and Pathfinder would be a standard action, and instances of "partial action" were replaced by "standard action" for 3.5, but evidently, no one checked if the wording still made sense. Paizo simply copy-pasted the 3.5 feat description, apparently without checking it, either.
And yeah, saying "Flyby Attack grants an additional standard action" is like saying "Simple Weapon Proficiency allows ignoring all penalties, including from Power Attack etc." - it's technically correct per RAW, but it's a useless and actually misleading statement because no sane GM will ever let that fly.
I plan on taking graceful flier as soon as I get a fly speed
Why, though? It's +4 to fly checks and +5ft movement. I don't see how that's worth a feat at 10th level, where you should be Hasted (from Boots of Speed when in doubt) in combat, and you should be able to invest enough into the skill (especially with Skill Focus already granting +6 at that point).
I plan on taking graceful flier as soon as I get a fly speedWhy, though? It's +4 to fly checks and +5ft movement. I don't see how that's worth a feat at 10th level, where you should be Hasted (from Boots of Speed when in doubt) in combat, and you should be able to invest enough into the skill (especially with Skill Focus already granting +6 at that point).
Thematic reasons.
Thanks for clarifying about the another in flyby being an artifact by the way, my experience of 3.5 prior to pathfinder was limited to say the least.
my experience of 3.5 prior to pathfinder was limited to say the least.
I've never played 3.5 in my life, and my only experience with 3.0 is from Neverwinter Nights 1. But I have PDFs of the 3.0 and 3.5 books, and I like to consult them in cases such as this, as they often give an insight on how something is supposed to work.
Did it ever get FAQ'd?
Not FAQ'd, but, the feat text was changed for Bestiary 5 (why did I not check that???), where it reads thus: "When the creature takes a move action while flying, it can take its standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack."
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Did it ever get FAQ'd?Not FAQ'd, but, the feat text was changed for Bestiary 5 (why did I not check that???), where it reads thus: "When the creature takes a move action while flying, it can take its standard action at any point during the move. The creature cannot take a second move action during a round when it makes a flyby attack."
I checked Bestiary 2 to see if it was changed but didn't think to check soo far.
Good work!