Feat Chain questions on Vital Strike & Cleave


Rules Questions


1.) Barring feats or special abilities, is it possible to use the "VItal Strike" feat chain with the attack made at the end of a charge?

What about the attack(s) made when using the "Cleave" feat chain?

Can you use "Cleave" at the end of a charge?

Dark Archive

No, no, and no. In that order.


that is because they are all their own specific type of action, not made as part of an action, though I really feel that charge should have an exemption for Vital Strike in the feat. This is like how Sunder is made as part of an attack action, while Grapple is its own standard action


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The only way to combine any of those three actions together is through specific feats and/or class features...

Gorum’s divine fighting technique allows vital strike on cleave with great swords.

Weapon Trick can allow vital strike on cleave with any two-handed weapon.

Heritor Knight prestige class can vital strike on any standard action attack made with a longsword (including cleave and charge)

Demonic style feat chain allows cleave on charge

If it were possible to combine those three attacks in any way without the need of feats or special abilities then there would be no reason for the feats listed above and the main benefit of the Heritor Knight prestige class would do nothing.


Aroth Khashar wrote:

1.) Barring feats or special abilities, is it possible to use the "VItal Strike" feat chain with the attack made at the end of a charge?

What about the attack(s) made when using the "Cleave" feat chain?

The "attack action" mentioned in Vital Strike does not simply refer to any kind of action that contains an attack, far from it. The feat refers to the action called "Attack", listed under "Standard Actions" in the "Actions in Combat" section, on page 182 of the CRB.

As you can see from the word "when", Vital Strike is a triggered ability, and the trigger is using the standard attack action. Any time a feat, class feature, general rule et al. states an action type for an ability, it's not the attack action. Any ability that says "standard action", "move action" "swift action", "immediate action", "full-attack action", or "full round action" uses a different action and thus doesn't trigger Vital Strike. Attacks of Opportunity don't use an action, and thus obviously aren't attack actions either. Especially note that while the 'attack action' is a type of 'standard action', the opposite is not true (a 'standard action' with an attack is not the 'attack action' unless explicitly called out). If something does not use the exact phrase "attack action" (without a "full" in front), it's not the attack action. Likewise, while a 'full-attack action' is a type of 'full round action', the opposite is not true. Meanwhile, "full attack", "full-attack action" and (rarer) "full attack action" all mean the same (so pounce works with everything that says "as a full-attack action").

Aroth Khashar wrote:
Can you use "Cleave" at the end of a charge?

Everything that contains text like "as an X action" (or "is a X action") is an activated ability, you have to spend an action to activate the feat, class feature et al. The Cleave description begins with "as a standard action", that tells you it's an activated ability that requires you to spend a standard action in order to use it. When you use a full-round action like charge, you no longer have a standard action that turn, and thus can't spend it on anything.

In general, pay attention to what feats and class features are saying. Neither Vital Strike nor Cleave say "when making a single attack" or something like that, they explicitly say when or how you can use them, and that's the only ways you can use them (without another option overriding that).

yukongil wrote:
that is because they are all their own specific type of action, not made as part of an action

No, this is just plain wrong. Vital Strike is made as part of an action, just not the action required to use Cleave or charge.


Aroth Khashar wrote:
1.) Barring feats or special abilities, is it possible to use the "VItal Strike" feat chain with the attack made at the end of a charge?

No you cannot Vital Strike at the end of a charge, unless you have Gorum's Divine Fighting Technique that specifically lets you do this. Normally when you charge, you just make one single melee attack, and this attack is not considered an Attack Action.

The only time you can perform a Vital Strike is when you're performing an Attack Action, and Attack Actions are a special type of Standard Action.

Aroth Khashar wrote:

What about the attack(s) made when using the "Cleave" feat chain?

Can you use "Cleave" at the end of a charge?

You cannot Cleave at the end of a charge. Cleave is a Standard Action, and Charge is a Full Round Action that consumes both your Move and Standard Action.

Cleave is a Standard Action. And an Attack Action is also a Standard Action. And you can only do a Vital Strike while doing an Attack Action.


The whole standard action attack, attack as a standard action stuff still confuses me at times.

For one, I don't know why anyone would purposefully design a difference between the two actions... they are both attacks, and both take a standard action... why are they different? Who did this to me? I hope you stub your toe every day for the rest of your pathetic natural life.

The simple fact that there is a difference between a standard action attack and attacking as a standard action is stupid. Honestly, just saying screw it and making it all the same doesn't change that much... Vital Strike with Cleave is available through Two Handed Weapon Trick (Cleaving Smash), so it's not going to break the game.

Martials will have more options, but spellcasting action economy would be largely unaffected... so the game wouldn't change that much. We would just have way less stupid stuff the fight about in the rules arena.

There is no need to allow Cleave with a Charge... because you can just walk up and Cleave, it does the exact same thing just without the double movement available when charging.

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Removed most of this thread because insults have no place on our forums. If you don't like something, flag it and move on without engaging as moderating will remove posts containing quoted content. You don't have to agree with each other but you do have to be respectful.

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