I'm going to be starting a game tomorrow (first time finally!!!) and I'm planning on playing a half-orc Beastmaster Witch.
My plan is to focus on occult spellcasting and dabble in melee using Orc Weapon Familiarity/Expertise as well as taking some Sentinel feats as well. My bear animal companion is going to help with flanking when needed as well as have that sweet support benefit. I'm expecting my spellcasting to be just as good and standard as any typical Witch and my melee capabilities to be Ok (maybe just hitting 50%-75% of the time) which is fine. I plan on using melee for some versatility and just as a way to not have to waste too many spells on mooks.
Lastly, I'm planning on taking Cauldron and some familiar improvement feats to fill out the rest. Also focusing on Occultism, Nature and Survival skills. Overall I expect it to be a Witch with the feel of a Ranger without actually going into Ranger.
With my expectations, does it seem like I will still be let down? Any advice on other ways to go about this concept?
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i'm having a bit of trouble visualising your planned progression.
the thing with beastmaster is that it takes quite a bit of feats, plus beastmaster will delay your sentinel feats until level 8. Let alone start picking familiar feats which will be at the earliest level 10.
you want high intelligence, and since you'll only get heavy armor at 8+ it means that you'll probably need a bit of dexterity to not explode with your tiny HP when you wade into melee, but you also need strength if you are going there, as well as con.
in general, to me, it seems like you are spreading yourself too thin.
witches' power is that they already have a great 3rd action in the form of focus Hexes, so you can easily have something like "hex, stride, melee" as a routine if you want to go melee, or a "hex, cantrip" to conserve spellslots if you want to stay at range.
i just dont see the actions and feats required to utilise beastmaster. Going straight for sentinel will also allow you to have heavy armor (and thus dump dex to 10) from level 2 and onwards, which does mean that you will have easier time with your initial stat allocation.
p.s. definately don't expect to hit 75% of the time in melee with a witch, easpecially at mid levels when your proficiency will start falling off.
shroudb wrote: i'm having a bit of trouble visualising your planned progression.....
Sorry, I'll lay that out.
Lvl 1 Stats: STR-14 DEX-12 CON-12 INT-18 WIS-12 CHA-10
Lvl 20 Stats: STR-20 DEX-14 CON-18 INT-22 WIS-18 CHA-12
1- General Training -> Armor Proficiency [Light] (will be retrained after Sentinel)
2- Beastmaster Dedication
3- Ancestral Paragon -> Orc Weapon Familiarity
4- Mature Beastmaster Companion
5- General Training -> Armor Proficiency [Medium] (will be retrained after Sentinel)
6- Cauldron
7- Weapon Proficiency
8- Incredible Beastmaster's Companion
9- Natural Ambition -> Enhanced Familiar
10- Sentinel Dedication (+Armor Specialist w/ skill feat)
11- [General Feat Undecided]
12- Steady Spellcasting
13- Orc Weapon Expertise
14- Specialized Beastmaster Companion
15- [General Feat Undecided]
16- Effortless Spellcasting
17- [Ancestry Feat Undecided]
18- Incredible Familiar
19- [General Feat Undecided]
20- Patron's Truth
As you can see, I wasn't planning on going with heavy armor. Not saying it's bad (duh) but it's not what I'm envisioning for my character. Might take Toughness as one of those spare/retrained general feats. And yeah, I thought I might be pushing it with 75% chance of hit, but I expected I could hope for as much against mooks. Can I still realistically expect 50% chance of hit? That'd still generally make me happy.
The biggest issue you're going to have is, being a Witch, you're not going to ever be able to get better than Trained in armour, as Sentinel's armour proficiency level specifically doesn't increase on Unarmed Defence increases, so you're going start getting really easy to hit beyond the first few levels, especially ranging into the mid to high levels, and when targeted by bosses.
In a similar vein, your cap of Expert in weapon training means you will progressively get worse at trying to hit things relative to their AC increases. 50% is going to be a really optimistic goal for a hit ratio, even against mooks, at cap level.
If you want something that can fight toe to toe and still cast, you might want to approach it from the other side, starting with a martial, and getting an MC dedication in Witch for some offcasting
Asethe wrote: The biggest issue you're going to have is, being a Witch, you're not going to ever be able to get better than Trained in armour, as Sentinel's armour proficiency level specifically doesn't increase on Unarmed Defence increases, so you're going start getting really easy to hit beyond the first few levels, especially ranging into the mid to high levels, and when targeted by bosses. Actually, you do improve.
Sentinel Dedication wrote: Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in any type of armor (but not unarmored defense), you also gain that proficiency in the armor types granted to you by this feat. If you are at least 13th level and you have a class feature that grants you expert proficiency in unarmored defense, you also become an expert in the armor types granted to you by this feat. Witch wrote: Defensive RobesLevel 13
The flow of magic through your spellcasting and your defensive training combine to help you get out of the way before an attack. Your proficiency rank in unarmored defense increases to expert.
That clause in Sentinel was probably put there so we didn't have fully-armored monks running around.
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John R. wrote: shroudb wrote: i'm having a bit of trouble visualising your planned progression.....
Sorry, I'll lay that out.
Lvl 1 Stats: STR-14 DEX-12 CON-12 INT-18 WIS-12 CHA-10
Lvl 20 Stats: STR-20 DEX-14 CON-18 INT-22 WIS-18 CHA-12
1- General Training -> Armor Proficiency [Light] (will be retrained after Sentinel)
2- Beastmaster Dedication
3- Ancestral Paragon -> Orc Weapon Familiarity
4- Mature Beastmaster Companion
5- General Training -> Armor Proficiency [Medium] (will be retrained after Sentinel)
6- Cauldron
7- Weapon Proficiency
8- Incredible Beastmaster's Companion
9- Natural Ambition -> Enhanced Familiar
10- Sentinel Dedication (+Armor Specialist w/ skill feat)
11- [General Feat Undecided]
12- Steady Spellcasting
13- Orc Weapon Expertise
14- Specialized Beastmaster Companion
15- [General Feat Undecided]
16- Effortless Spellcasting
17- [Ancestry Feat Undecided]
18- Incredible Familiar
19- [General Feat Undecided]
20- Patron's Truth
As you can see, I wasn't planning on going with heavy armor. Not saying it's bad (duh) but it's not what I'm envisioning for my character. Might take Toughness as one of those spare/retrained general feats. And yeah, I thought I might be pushing it with 75% chance of hit, but I expected I could hope for as much against mooks. Can I still realistically expect 50% chance of hit? That'd still generally make me happy. Going with light armor and 12 dex on caster HP seems like suicide to me.
Especially since the only pay off is a weak 14 str attack.
That's why I said that it looks like you're spreading yourself too thin.
You'd renounce to so many witch powers to take the bm dedication.
No focus spells, no improved refocusing, no special familiars.
Note also that by lvl 9 you won't be able to take enhanced familiar through natural ambition, since it's a lvl 2 class feat and not a lvl 1.
Taking the bm archetype is always the best choice in terms of damage, because nothing stands before it, but on the other hand it requires a huge amount of class feats ( 4 ), and offers no versatility when it comes to combat.
I'd probably go with something else like focus spells or eventually the wizard dedication. But the wizard dedication won't be different from the bm one in terms of points.
frozen heart and improved refocusing, are imo mandatory ( eventually even lesson of life). Being able to refocus x2 is great. And by lvl 18 with double hex it would be gg.
I get what y'all are saying and yes, I would expect to be just slightly less squishies up until getting medium armor trainer where I might be "safer" in the occasional melee situation. Should I drop my INT and WIS by 2 points (-1 mod) to fill out DEX and CON for the first few levels?
I'm really not a huge fan of most of the Witch feats. I picked Witch mainly to be an INT based occult caster. Also, the point of this build was to avoid the "monotonous and repetitive" gameplay that the Taking20 video complained about while also getting an idea of how different proficiency tiers feel like.
Would it be better to go Ranger with Witch dedication?
John R. wrote: I get what y'all are saying and yes, I would expect to be just slightly less squishies up until getting medium armor trainer where I might be "safer" in the occasional melee situation. Should I drop my INT and WIS by 2 points (-1 mod) to fill out DEX and CON for the first few levels?
I'm really not a huge fan of most of the Witch feats. I picked Witch mainly to be an INT based occult caster. Also, the point of this build was to avoid the "monotonous and repetitive" gameplay that the Taking20 video complained about while also getting an idea of how different proficiency tiers feel like.
Would it be better to go Ranger with Witch dedication?
The point here is that in this 2e even a +1 is a huge difference.
For example, let us consider your lvl 8 witch:
Quote: with a +2 constitution, you'd have 72 hp.
with a +1 dex, unarmored, you will have 22 AC
A lvl 8 creature has +20/21 hit, which means that he will always hit you, with a 50% chance of a critical hit ( 20/25% on a second hit ). If you were flanked by 2 enemies, increase either chances by 10%.
The average damage for that level would be around 20, so let's assume 40 damage on a critical hit. 1/2 of your health pool.
2 Critical hit in a round ( which is not that impossible given your stats ) and you are gone.
Increasing your dex and armor might help ( moving from 22 to 26, for example, and eventually relying on a shield to gain an extra +2 ), but your hp pool might be an issue too.
Not to say that we are just talking about enemies of your level. If you were to fight more powerful enemies, it might be gg on a single round.
Note that all other classes has more or less the same AC as a witch, as well as the same progression. They can have higher AC starting from lvl 19, so the armor wouldn't be a problem at all.
What might be a real issue is the HP pool, which is really low compared to a combatant ( 6hp/lvl vs 10hp/lvl. Eventually, vs 8/hp level if we consider classes like rogue, investigator and alchemist ). So you'd have to find a way to deal with your low hp pool.
a lvl 8 ranger with a +2 const will have 104 hp.
32 more hp than yours ( around 40% more hp ).
The difference is huge.
Your melee might be ok, but you have to invest into something like sentinel dedication, to get light and medium armor proficiency.
Quote: 16 str
12 dex ( you won't raise dex past 12 )
12 con
18 int
10 wis
10 char
This might do the trick for what concerns your AC ( you will just have to survive the first level to hit the sentinel dedication ).
I suggest you to also take the shield block reaction and the toughness feat as soon as you can.
By lvl 6 you might start with companion feats ( 6 Dedication, 8 Mature, 10 Incredible ), but it's your call. It's really a huge investment.
Barskin ( as well as stoneskin ) might also help you dealing with the blows but a question still remains "Why?"
I have the feeling that character is probably going to be a burden for the party.
HumbleGamer wrote: John R. wrote: I get what y'all are saying and yes, I would expect to be just slightly less squishies up until getting medium armor trainer where I might be "safer" in the occasional melee situation. Should I drop my INT and WIS by 2 points (-1 mod) to fill out DEX and CON for the first few levels?
I'm really not a huge fan of most of the Witch feats. I picked Witch mainly to be an INT based occult caster. Also, the point of this build was to avoid the "monotonous and repetitive" gameplay that the Taking20 video complained about while also getting an idea of how different proficiency tiers feel like.
Would it be better to go Ranger with Witch dedication?
The point here is that in this 2e even a +1 is a huge difference.
For example, let us consider your lvl 8 witch:
Quote: with a +2 constitution, you'd have 72 hp.
with a +1 dex, unarmored, you will have 22 AC
A lvl 8 creature has +20/21 hit, which means that he will always hit you, with a 50% chance of a critical hit ( 20/25% on a second hit ). If you were flanked by 2 enemies, increase either chances by 10%.
The average damage for that level would be around 20, so let's assume 40 damage on a critical hit. 1/2 of your health pool.
2 Critical hit in a round ( which is not that impossible given your stats ) and you are gone.
Increasing your dex and armor might help ( moving from 22 to 26, for example, and eventually relying on a shield to gain an extra +2 ), but your hp pool might be an issue too.
Not to say that we are just talking about enemies of your level. If you were to fight more powerful enemies, it might be gg on a single round.
Note that all other classes has more or less the same AC as a witch, as well as the same progression. They can have higher AC starting from lvl 19, so the armor wouldn't be a problem at all.
What might be a real issue is the HP pool, which is really low compared to a combatant ( 6hp/lvl vs 10hp/lvl. Eventually, vs 8/hp level if we consider classes like rogue,... I was planning on getting trained up to medium armor through general feats until I pick up Sentinel at lvl 10, then retrain those general feats. I'd be focusing on Beastmaster right from lvl 2 and take the upgrades as soon as they are available. I'd be willing to take toughness over something like cauldron or enhanced familiar.....
Had no plans on engaging big baddies in melee with this build, just at level or lower mooks.
Thoughts on going with Ranger with Witch dedication over this?
John R. wrote:
Had no plans on engaging big baddies in melee with this build, just at level or lower mooks.
Well, neither my friend sorcerer had similar plans, but the big one moved towards him and delivered a critical one.
Just to say that the closer you are, the higher the possibility for the enemies to designate the squishy one ( you ) to be the best target ( flank + X strikes = gg ).
John R. wrote:
Thoughts on going with Ranger with Witch dedication over this?
Ranger is a well rounded one.
Prey offers you the possibility to have an overall smooth action economy ( culminates when you take double prey starting by lvl 12 ) with either hunted shot or twin takedown ( remember that you will need 2 weapons or a ranged one. no two handed weapons allowed ).
A parry weapon as offhand or a shield ( attached weapon rules ) depends if you just want to have higher ac or also make a good use of shieldblock. Agile weapons anyway will get more bonuses from the "flurry" specialization. You have to think about all the possibilities.
You have companion choices within the class, but with some limits:
1) your companion will get its free action only if you have a marked target
2) your companion can only use its action to move "towards the marked target" and to "attack the marked target"
Not going to say these are small or huge disadvantages, but wanted to pointed out the differences between a ranger companion and the Beastmaster archetype.
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Mind to expand a little more your character idea?
Considering we are going for a ranger with witch dedication, what would you like to get from that dedication?
HumbleGamer wrote: John R. wrote:
Had no plans on engaging big baddies in melee with this build, just at level or lower mooks.
Well, neither my friend sorcerer had similar plans, but the big one moved towards him and delivered a critical one.
Just to say that the closer you are, the higher the possibility for the enemies to designate the squishy one ( you ) to be the best target ( flank + X strikes = gg ).
John R. wrote:
Thoughts on going with Ranger with Witch dedication over this?
Ranger is a well rounded one.
Prey offers you the possibility to have an overall smooth action economy ( culminates when you take double prey starting by lvl 12 ) with either hunted shot or twin takedown ( remember that you will need 2 weapons or a ranged one. no two handed weapons allowed ).
A parry weapon as offhand or a shield ( attached weapon rules ) depends if you just want to have higher ac or also make a good use of shieldblock. Agile weapons anyway will get more bonuses from the "flurry" specialization. You have to think about all the possibilities.
You have companion choices within the class, but with some limits:
1) your companion will get its free action only if you have a marked target
2) your companion can only use its action to move "towards the marked target" and to "attack the marked target"
Not going to say these are small or huge disadvantages, but wanted to pointed out the differences between a ranger companion and the Beastmaster archetype.
...
Mind to expand a little more your character idea?
Considering we are going for a ranger with witch dedication, what would you like to get from that dedication? That's a good point about just getting closer to the general area of melee combat.
Not sure if I would be as invested in using an animal companion as a ranger versus focusing on the Monster hunter feats. I'd probably also go either Outwit or Precision.
Unfortunately, I would like to use debuffs and with only Master proficiency (and only at lvl 18+) seems like I should be happy if enemies get a normal failure. But utility spells are nice too.
Yeah, this 2e sucks when it comes to deal damage with spells using a dedication.
What might help you is to have your main stat as also the stat required for the dedication ( alchemist + wizard dedication or Sorcerer with bard dedication, for example ), but given your current situation you will be way too penalized ( from -3 to -6 depends your level ).
What you might aim for is some spells which even on a success give some advantages.
Shortly, I am talking about something which is clearly an exploit givien its advantages.
like Synesthesia, for example.
Monster hunter feats are good only if you plan to make a good use of the recall knowledge action ( and also requires you to have a decent wis score ). By taking the outwit specialization you are going to have a really nice advantage ( i'd take demoralize too if i were to go for an outwit ranger ).
Additional recollection also synergies well ( I'd say it's mandatory if you go with the monster hunter build ), since on a success recall knowledge on your prey you get another recall knowledge for free on a different target.
Anyway, better try to put down some stats and feats progression just to see if you missed something down the road ( we'll be able to give more specific suggestion then ).
I appreciate the help but I don't think I'm going to have the time to post a whole other build and discuss that while at work with only a couple hours after to have something ready for the game. I'll continiue with this general build while keeping everyone's input in mind. Thanks everyone.
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