If you roll a 1 you wasted slots. It is better to just use empower. That way if you roll a 1 you only use a 6th level slot instead of a 9th level slot.
However if you can cast 9th level spells then you should just use energy drain.
You still have to roll when you combine maximize and empowered spells. You take half of what you roll and add it to the maximized portion.
Actually, you'll waste 2 slots as well if rolling a 1 on a non-maximized empowered enervation. 1d4 x 1.5 yields
1 3 4 6
On the other hand, if you roll a 4, you have drained the same amount of levels as you would have with a maximized empowered enervation... for three levels less.
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The empowered part can't add less than one negative level. Round down, yes, but with a minimum of one. You can't round down to zero. So you'd get 5,5,5,6.
Rounding: Occasionally the rules ask you to round a result or value. Unless otherwise stated, always round down. For example, if you are asked to take half of 7, the result would be 3.
Empower Spell (Metamagic)You can increase the power of your spells, causing them to deal more damage.
Benefit: All variable, numeric effects of an empowered spell are increased by half, including bonuses to those dice rolls.
Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. An empowered spell uses up a spell slot two levels higher than the spell’s actual level.
The rules about rounding and those about empower don't say anything about a minimum value and the rules about rounding say "always round down". You have a source for your statement?
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You still have to roll when you combine maximize and empowered spells. You take half of what you roll and add it to the maximized portion.
Any idea where I can find that spelled out in the rules? I can not find it anywhere.
I am not trying to be difficult and the only reason I ask is because I run Pathfinder Society and like to make sure I am doing things RAW no matter how I run my home games.
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You still have to roll when you combine maximize and empowered spells. You take half of what you roll and add it to the maximized portion.Any idea where I can find that spelled out in the rules? I can not find it anywhere.
I am not trying to be difficult and the only reason I ask is because I run Pathfinder Society and like to make sure I am doing things RAW no matter how I run my home games.
It's been clarified as that by James (I think) here on the boards. I don't know if it has ever been more official than that.
Edit: Or maybe it hasn't...
Any idea where I can find that spelled out in the rules? I can not find it anywhere.
Right in the PRD:
All variable, numeric effects of a spell modified by this feat are maximized. Saving throws and opposed rolls are not affected, nor are spells without random variables. A maximized spell uses up a spell slot three levels higher than the spell's actual level. An empowered, maximized spell gains the separate benefits of each feat: the maximum result plus half the normally rolled result.
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The rules about rounding and those about empower don't say anything about a minimum value and the rules about rounding say "always round down". You have a source for your statement?
Well the rules for rounding say:
In general, if you wind up with a fraction, round down, even if the fraction is one-half or larger.Exception: Certain rolls, such as damage and hit points, have a minimum of 1.
Since enervation does level damage, you can't round below 1. You can't lose no levels if you fail a save (unless you've got some other protection, but that's not relevant), can you? So when you add 'half the normally rolled result' via Empower, you can't add less than one to it. Thus, 5,5,5,6.
Since enervation does level damage, you can't round below 1. You can't lose no levels if you fail a save (unless you've got some other protection, but that's not relevant), can you? So when you add 'half the normally rolled result' via Empower, you can't add less than one to it. Thus, 5,5,5,6.
Ah, but Enervation does not do any damage. It bestows a random number of negative levels.
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Since enervation does level damage, you can't round below 1. You can't lose no levels if you fail a save (unless you've got some other protection, but that's not relevant), can you? So when you add 'half the normally rolled result' via Empower, you can't add less than one to it. Thus, 5,5,5,6.Ah, but Enervation does not do any damage. It bestows a random number of negative levels.
...yes, it does. And rounding down would never result in a loss of zero levels. You can choose to rule it otherwise in your game; that's how it would work in mine.
RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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...yes, it does. And rounding down would never result in a loss of zero levels. You can choose to rule it otherwise in your game; that's how it would work in mine.
How are you getting a loss of zero levels? Enervation does not allow a save.
RAW, enervation causes negative levels, not damage, and so empowered enervation is not subject to the minimum rounding rule for damage. Obviously you can house rule however you like, but just claiming that it works another way isn't really an argument.
Do you have a source for your assertion that negative levels are a form of damage?
Also, the minimum damage rule is for the final end result of damage, so someone who makes their save vs. a one point burning hands takes one point of damage (half of 1, round down to 0, apply minimum of 1). That minimum does not apply to the extra damage from Empower Spell, as the total damage would still be at least 1.
Empower is pretty terrible with enervation.
Just wanted to confirm that a MEE, on hit, would drain
4, 5, 5, 6
levels, depending on the roll? Which means that, if you roll a 1, you just wasted 2 slots for nothing?
combine this idea with feats/abilities that allow a reroll/luck modifier
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RPG Superstar 2011 Top 32
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You're claiming that negative levels aren't a form of damage? Really?
AFAIK damage only comes in two types: hit point and ability. Negative levels are more like a status ailment such as shaken or blinded.
spoiler because this is getting far off topic:
It doesn't matter for Empower anyway. The minimum damage rule just means that there is always at least one point of damage inflicted per successful attack, not that all halved damage rounds up to one.
For example, an empowered burning hands at caster level 1 can do either 1, 3, 4, or 6 points of damage depending on the d4 roll. A person who saves against that spell will take 1, 1, 2, or 3 points respectively.
You're claiming that negative levels aren't a form of damage? Really?
Read the rules for negative levels in pathfinder.
I'm not sure how anyone is arriving at rounding down causing zero. If I roll a 1 it empowers to 1.5 rounds down to 1.at no point are you doing 0.
You're claiming that negative levels aren't a form of damage? Really?
They are not damage. By the rules the only damage is hit point damage, and ability damage.
DamageIf your attack succeeds, you deal damage. The type of weapon used determines the amount of damage you deal.
Damage reduces a target's current hit points.
Minimum Damage: If penalties reduce the damage result to less than 1, a hit still deals 1 point of nonlethal damage.
Strength Bonus: When you hit with a melee or thrown weapon, including a sling, add your Strength modifier to the damage result. A Strength penalty, but not a bonus, applies on damage rolls made with a bow that is not a composite bow.
Off-Hand Weapon: When you deal damage with a weapon in your off hand, you add only 1/2 your Strength bonus. If you have a Strength penalty, the entire penalty applies.
Wielding a Weapon Two-Handed: When you deal damage with a weapon that you are wielding two-handed, you add 1-1/2 times your Strength bonus (Strength penalties are not multiplied). You don't get this higher Strength bonus, however, when using a light weapon with two hands.
Multiplying Damage: Sometimes you multiply damage by some factor, such as on a critical hit. Roll the damage (with all modifiers) multiple times and total the results.
Note: When you multiply damage more than once, each multiplier works off the original, unmultiplied damage. So if you are asked to double the damage twice, the end result is three times the normal damage.
Exception: Extra damage dice over and above a weapon's normal damage are never multiplied.
Ability Damage: Certain creatures and magical effects can cause temporary or permanent ability damage (a reduction to an ability score).
Nowhere is level drain mentioned.
does level drain reduce a target's current hit points? does it lower ability score that it can count as ability damage?
does level drain reduce a target's current hit points? does it lower ability score that it can count as ability damage?
The reduced hit points is a by product of level drain, but the level drain itself is not doing hit point damage. It is just lowering the maximum and current hit points you have, much like con drain does.
Level drains don't lower ability scores though, except for the ones you boost at every 4th level. That is not ability damage though. If either of those were damage you could restore them with cure spells or restoration spells. You have to restore the negative spells directly.
They should have included ability drain in that list though since it is a more severe form of ability damage.
"The reduced hit points is a by product of level drain, but the level drain itself is not doing hit point damage."
I don't think that matters, it is the reason why Ability drain is also listed as damage (and as ability score lowering effect, actual drain is also included)
"The reduced hit points is a by product of level drain, but the level drain itself is not doing hit point damage."
I don't think that matters, it is the reason why Ability drain is also listed as damage (and as ability score lowering effect, actual drain is also included)
It matters because having your ability score lowered and taking ability damage are not the same thing.
As an example if you take con damage it lowers your hit points, but con damage is not causing hit point damage. The loss of hit points is just a by product of having a lower con score, by the same measure taking negative levels leads to other bad things happening.
Another example is being cursed with a lower ability score. Let's say it is con. In that case you are losing constitution, and hp, but in neither case are taking damage. It is just a by product of being cursed.
In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equals or exceeds its total Hit Dice, it dies.
I would classify negative levels as damage, perhaps the worst possible kind of damage, plus it also includes loss of hp and one can die of it, thus it would be nonsense to not call it damage, it is basically damage to the soul.
In addition, the creature reduces its current and total hit points by 5 for each negative level it possesses. The creature is also treated as one level lower for the purpose of level-dependent variables (such as spellcasting) for each negative level possessed. Spellcasters do not lose any prepared spells or slots as a result of negative levels. If a creature’s negative levels equals or exceeds its total Hit Dice, it dies.I would classify negative levels as damage, perhaps the worst possible kind of damage, plus it also includes loss of hp and one can die of it, thus it would be nonsense to not call it damage, it is basically damage to the soul.
That is nice flavor, but it does not fit the rules, and this is the rules forum. As I have demonstrated loss of ability scores and hit points does not equal "damage". You can be cursed with a lower ability score, but it won't equal ability damage, which has a specific meaning within the game.
As another example poison is not damage even though it can cause ability damage. Poisons, and diseases are just the carrier of the problem, much like negative levels are. If you have them they can cause bad side affects, but they are not damage in and of themselves.
interesting, but IMO it was an oversight, and we should ask a dev if this is or isn't a damage
interesting, but IMO it was an oversight, and we should ask a dev if this is or isn't a damage
Energy Drains do double negative levels, but that is written in the specific energy drain rule themselves, but not any where else. I would think that if it was damage it would be a general rule.
Does it matter if it counts as HP damage?
The rule says a minimum of 1.
Maximized empowered enervation depending on the dice roll is:
4, 5, 5, 6All of these are greater than 1.
The TOTAL value for the spell is greater than 1, it nowhere says the ADDITIONAL damage msut be a minimum of 1.
Since it stacks, use quickened enervation followed by empowered enervation.
The empowered section only counts what is rolled. If you roll a 1 then you get half of that 1. The game says to round down so you don't get anything else. Whatever is maximized is not counted by the empower section. If it was then you would not have to roll.
That is not how it works.
The actual number you roll is what gets cut in half. As an example the 4 gets maximized.
You then roll 1d4 and divide it by 2.
If you roll a 1 then it stays as a 1. If you roll a 2 then ....
edit:nevermind, we agree in application. I just misunderstood you because of how it was worded. :)