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Think about it. There’s a certain imagery in having the rugged pistolero draw gun after gun, dropping them behind after the charge has been spent.
At the same time, feats like running reload or reloading strike alter the game dynamic significantly and end up being very strongly required. A similar issue exists for the Returning rune.
So why not doing for ranged weapons what handwraps do for unarmed attacks?
Hear me out:
Bandoleer of Expendable Pew Pew +1 [item 2+]
Invested, magical, transmutation
This bandoleer carries magical runes etched into it as if it was a weapon, and can carry up to 3 bulks of weaponry. When you draw a weapon from the Bandoleer of Expendable Pew Pew, the first attack made with the weapon before the start of your next turn gains the effects of the etched runes. You cannot conceal the Bandoleer or the weapons in it.
This gives a viable way to play characters with thrown weapons, thousand daggers, discardable pistols and all sort of one-off shenanigans, without invalidating running reload, quick draw or reloading strike (the bandoleer has limits!) but just making them less mandatory.
Do consider it. And also, the name is a must.
Has the gunslinger solved the problem of reloading dual-weapons yet? (I have been following the Inventor thread rather than the Gunslinger thread.)
Change the bandolier to a Reloading Kit that lets the gunslinger reload firearms and that requires zero free hands. Kits can be stored in a bandolier (or anywhere really given errata 2) for access to their contents without drawing them. Allow runes on the kit to affect the bullets that are loaded from it, just like arrows are affected by the runes on the bow that shoots them.
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More thinking that it should be an item that enables various playstyles, rather than a firearm crutch. The reloading hand issue is separate - or at least should be separate. While this can help with it, it’s less targeted.
3 bulk is 30 knives, that is a bit of a ridiculous number.
Michael Sayre has previously remarked that he sees definite room for a Gunslinger Bandolier that assists in reloading in this thread. I would be surprised if we didn't have at least one option for one. I even homebrewed what I could see happening for a mid-high level version of such an item in the next post.
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3 bulk is 30 knives, that is a bit of a ridiculous number.
Have you met Merisiel?
(It’s also 3 flintlocks, which is a bit more believable)
3 bulk is 30 knives, that is a bit of a ridiculous number.
That's a halfling's weight!!! Actually, I could carry both the halfling and the knives in my pockets so it doesn't seem so ridiculous. ;)
3 bulk is 30 knives, that is a bit of a ridiculous number.That's a halfling's weight!!! Actually, I could carry both the halfling and the knives in my pockets so it doesn't seem so ridiculous. ;)
Bandolier+ kid carrier! I want my friends to carry my halfling into battle like some suburban dad.
Bandolier+ kid carrier! I want my friends to carry my halfling into battle like some suburban dad.3 bulk is 30 knives, that is a bit of a ridiculous number.That's a halfling's weight!!! Actually, I could carry both the halfling and the knives in my pockets so it doesn't seem so ridiculous. ;)
If your friend is a barbarian they can take Friendly Toss and throw both your halfling and knives in a fight. ;)
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I'm just not a fan of the returning rune on aesthetic grounds. I'd prefer "all my throwing knives are awesome" to "this one awesome throwing knife teleports all over the place." Given that wealth exists as an advancement track, but the returning rune shows that they're fine with you making all of your throwing knife attacks with your best knife for the cost of that rune, I'd definitely like something similarly priced as a container for many knives each of which (temporarily) carry the same enchantment.
So the same sort of concept could be balanced around guns too.
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BANDOLIER OF RUNIC WEAPONRY Item 2+
This runic bandolier means that you are never without a blade to hand. A favourite of gunslingers as well as ninja with their throwing stars, this bandolier has weapon runes etched into it to give the weapons stored within the benefits of those runes, until it is released from your hand (or other appendage which holds the weapon). For example, +1 striking bandolier of runic weapons would give you a +1 item bonus to attack rolls with your attacks and increase the damage of your attacks from one weapon die to two. All weapons within the bandolier must be the same. Only one weapon can recieve the benefits of the Bandolier at a time, unless combined with a Doubling Ring.
You can upgrade, add, and transfer runes to and from the handwraps just as you would for a weapon, and you can attach talismans to the handwraps. Treat the handwraps as melee weapons of the brawling group with light Bulk for these purposes. Property runes apply only when they would be applicable to the unarmed attack you’re using. For example, a property that must be applied to a slashing weapon wouldn’t function when you attacked with a fist, but you would gain its benefits if you attacked with a claw or some other slashing unarmed attack.
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I'm just not a fan of the returning rune on aesthetic grounds. I'd prefer "all my throwing knives are awesome" to "this one awesome throwing knife teleports all over the place." Given that wealth exists as an advancement track, but the returning rune shows that they're fine with you making all of your throwing knife attacks with your best knife for the cost of that rune, I'd definitely like something similarly priced as a container for many knives each of which (temporarily) carry the same enchantment.
So the same sort of concept could be balanced around guns too.
Exactly. And for the same issue, I am strongly against a rune that automatically reloads, or a bandoleer that lets you reload as a free action - rules that invalidate rules might have been fine for first edition, but we’re supposed to be moving away from that. Specifically I mean rules that remove interplay - there is a rule that says X, but I have Y, so I don’t use X nor Y. Or ‘there is a rule that says I lose the weapon after throwing, but I have Returning, so I don’t lose the weapon and Returning does nothing more’.
Returning may have a place, but making it the only way to play throwing knives is bad. By the same reasoning, introducing an item you need to purchase before using a reloading weapon effectively is a bad idea - but something that lets you empower multiple weapons so you can finally play high level Merisiel or whatever Jamie Six Pistols you picture in your mind would fit right into guns&gears.
Ultimately, about pricing, I don’t think Returning is the threshold. I think the issue arises around level 2 when you get +1 weapons, and that’s when it should be solved. Returning can be the cheesy unlimited optimal version, but there should be a simpler usable version.
Final note on throwing weapon. The throwing knife has the Twin trait. The one weapon with ‘throwing’ in its name does not play well with Returning. Multiple thrown weapons are encouraged and implied, and with the way Gunslinger is going, a Twin pistol set is similarly likely, and it would not work with any Reloading Bandoleers or Automatic Loading runes. Let’s not make the mistake twice.
And for the same issue, I am strongly against a rune that automatically reloads, or a bandoleer that lets you reload as a free action - rules that invalidate rules might have been fine for first edition, but we’re supposed to be moving away from that.
In a Pathfinder 1st Edition comment Derklord explained a common notion about PF1 firearms:
Firearms need free reload, period. For one-handed firearms, Rapid Reload feat plus alchemical cartridges (paper) help, but for two-handed firearms, you need either three levels in the Gunslinger archetype Musket Master plus the above, the new Spell Cartridges feat, or either a Shadowshooting or shadowcraft weapon.
TO prevent misfires, you'll want the Reliable or Greater Reliable weapon enchantments (and/or maybe a weapon crafted with the Create Enhanced Firearm feat, if the GM allows you to find/buy one.
I disagreed two comments later. In my PF1 Iron Gods campaign, the two characters wielding firearms were content to reload at normal speeds. One was a gunslinger who specialized in battlefield control with a grappling gun. The other was an NPC bloodrager who shot once and continued the fight with a saber. I didn't like treating a firearm as a longbow that hit touch AC.
No-one else favored the slow way in that discussion and in other threads. The gunslinger players loved the massive damage of the rapid-fire gunslinger too much.
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That’s because it’s allowed and therefore effective. It doesn’t matter that it’s just a touch AC bow and that is boring, because it’s a touch AC bow and that is strong.
I don’t want to reduce gameplay, even if it gives me better damage per round (not true - I am a weakling and I will sell my soul for a +2 to damage, unless I can sell my soul for more). I don’t want to have the option to reduce interplay for major benefits.
I however also notice that constant reloading disrupts the class flow, especially in terms of reactions, so I’d love a way to reduce the reliance on reloadings while still keeping some interplay - a way to make multi-gun functional would help with that, while still letting me consider whether I can afford to drop my second gun or need to hold onto it a bit longer.
The alternative is ABP, which I often use, but it should not be the baseline for a playtest.
I like the bandoleer idea, and suggest that a couple gloves might augment it. I like and the idea that the basic version would impart the rune to any weapon drawn and held by the wearer for the turn it is drawn. If the weapon is drawn with the last action of the turn, and not used to attack, its rune is granted until the end of the next turn as long as used by the wearer.
I like the idea of it being able to hold up to 3 bulk of weapons. Light weapons must be of the same type to fall into the same 1 bulk. (the bandoleer may actually have some properties of a bag of holding with respect to light weapons, pulling one out and it being replenished at the end of the round.)
Bandoleers glove. This permits a rune on the bandoleer to continue to take effect on a weapon drawn from the bandoleer after the round it was drawn. If another weapons is not drawn from the bandoleer, the rune continues to remain imparted to the weapon in the gloved hand. (at most two gloves may be worn with any particular bandoleer) A ring of doubling can be used to attach to a bandoleer to impart the runes on a bandoleer onto a specific weapon, but it prevents its ability to utilize the gloves.
Another option would be a bandoleer or pouch of ammunition. Instead of imparting the runes on the weapons, it could impart the runes on the ammunition of the wielder loads out of the bandoleer and uses themselves. This could enable boosting of guns, and other ammunition weapons (but wouldn't enable or dart throwing builds)
It seems like there could be some options to enable some playstyles. Hopefully ones that don't make that item make conventional runes on a single weapon become obsolete, however.
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This is a great idea. I think the "lasts for one attack" is perfect for preventing it from being a way to spam having incredibly powerful runes on every weapon you want to draw. It is probably ok for the bandoleer to trail behind a couple of levels though, like a level 3 or 4 item instead of level 2. It is not that essential before striking runes, and it should only work with weapons that are not otherwise runed. That will mean that there is still some value in considering having a dueling pistol with a specific damage rune on it tucked away for emergencies/being careful about putting shock runes on your bandolier and never being prepared to face enemies that will be resistant to electricity. Or worse, electricity and physical damage.
3 bulk is 30 knives, that is a bit of a ridiculous number.
One could argue that it's actually 39 knives. XD
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3 bulk is 30 knives, that is a bit of a ridiculous number.One could argue that it's actually 39 knives. XD
Make it 12 one-handed weapons or up to 3 bulk, if the number is the issue. Either way, thrown has been an issue for a long time, and guns approach it very similarly.