The 3.5 SRD's still online. On the subject of druids it's a reminder of how polymorphing was one of the first changes between D&D & PF. There were no beast shape spells as such and polymorph didn't stop you getting trample in 3.5.
PF druids who can cast 9th level spells get shapechange at their disposal which includes the full effect of beast shape IV (and a solid duration). I can't think of a way to directly add magical beasts to druid wild shape in PF, but there might be other workarounds.
It's 10:30 at night here, and there's seldom anything pressing for me around this time.
As to the why the beast shape spells aren't on the druid list - I'm sure it's an expectation that wild shape covers the beast shape spells for them coupled with a lack of playtesting at higher levels before PF1 was released. Higher levels never get properly playtested.
Adding a few relevant spells back on to the druid list would be an easy house rule. A feat of 'advanced wild shape' which gives beast shape IV animals at say 12th level seems fine at first glance to me. I'd want to take a look at relevant magical beasts before suggesting making hour/level polymorphing into them possible.
Other workarounds. Druids get vermin shape II, if you want to trample that's an option. There's ways of adding sorc/wiz spells to the druid list in a couple of archetypes (halcyon, feyspeaker, probably more).
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Take Dreamed Secrets feat at lvl 13, that should give you access to Beast Shape IV as a lvl 6 spell.
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I know druids are very powerful, but becoming an elephant that can't trample seems a bit silly. If they did get it in 3.5, does anyone recall what level that came online?
If the form you assume has any of the following abilities, you gain the listed ability: burrow 30 feet, climb 90 feet, fly 90 feet (good maneuverability), swim 90 feet, blindsense 30 feet, darkvision 60 feet, low-light vision, scent, constrict, ferocity, grab, jet, poison, pounce, rake, trample, trip, and web.
From what I see the difference between BS III and IV is that:
- you get a slower Burrowing, Climbing, Flying, and Swimming speed;- shorter Darkvision;
- and that Blindsense, Breath weapon, Rend, Roar, Spikes, Tremorsense, and Energy resistance (and vulnerability) aren't available.
Some animal has Blindsense, Rend, or Tremorsense but I think there is no animal with the other abilities.
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Roar generally is a sonic based supernatural ability that cause fear or some other effect. There isn't a generic monster ability called roar.
Spikes are even more varied, as some magical beast has trowing spikes (Manticore), while probably some other creature has defensive spikes, but there isn't a generic monster ability called "spikes".
Checking AoN I have found a few animals with "spikes" in an ability name:
- Dinosaur, Kentrosaurus: Defensive Spikes (Ex) At the end of its turn, a kentrosaurus can crouch down and splay its back and shoulder spikes. It cannot make attacks of opportunity when using its defensive spikes in this way, but until its next turn any creature that attacks the kentrosaurus with light or one-handed melee weapons, natural weapons, or unarmed strikes takes 1d6 points of piercing damage unless it succeeds at a DC 15 Reflex saving throw. The save DC is Dexterity-based.
Dinosaur, Iguanodon: Thumb Spikes (Ex) An iguanodon’s thumb spikes can inflict grievous wounds—they deal triple damage on a successful critical hit.
There are animals with the spines and quill ability, but RAW they aren't the same thing.
For most animals thing like tail spikes and so on are factored in the damage they deal, and you get the damage automatically with the form, so lacking the ability has a minimal effect, but you would need it to get the x3 critical damage of the Iguanodon or the defensive ability of the Kentrosaurus.
I am a bit sad that my Druid batform doesn't get blindsense, but that is relevant mostly for extended scouting mission, the form of a bat hasn't big fighting abilities.
In 3.5, Wild Shape worked off the Polymorph spell, which says the character "gains all extraordinary special attacks possessed by the form (such as constrict, improved grab, and poison) but does not gain the extraordinary special qualities possessed by the new form (such as blindsense, fast healing, regeneration, and scent) or any supernatural or spell-like abilities". No level requirements on those abilities (unlike in Pathfinder), but the Druid was limited to non-dire animals of HD ≤ Druid level, and to small/medium animals, plus large at 8th, tiny at 11th, and huge at 15th level. So while it was (theoretically at least) possible to get trample at 5th level (compared to PF's 8th), turnign into an elephant had to wait until 15th level 8compared to PF's once again 8th).
A feat of 'advanced wild shape' which gives beast shape IV animals at say 12th level seems fine at first glance to me.
I think a feat just to open up the BS4 options for animals would be too high a cost, as the effect is really small (the only real notably ability would be a Warcat of Rull's rend, for those who don't like dinosaurs). I could see a mini-archetype trading out A Thousand Faces, or maybe a trait.
As to the why the beast shape spells aren't on the druid list - I'm sure it's an expectation that wild shape covers the beast shape spells for them coupled with a lack of playtesting at higher levels before PF1 was released.
I can imagine part of it is that they didn't want polymorphed animal companions.
I'd want to take a look at relevant magical beasts before suggesting making hour/level polymorphing into them possible.
There's nothing outrageous there, I think, the main difference is probably that the flight+pounce combination (which no animal has) is easily aviable, e.g. via Griffon.
I am a bit sad that my Druid batform doesn't get blindsense
Well, Echolocation is on the spell list!
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Druids not getting access to magical beasts is probably a more of a thematic choice, not a mechanics balance one. They're supposed to be able to turn into natural animals, not magically created by wizards experimental abominations.
As for not getting beast shape 4...meh? Druid is already the most powerful class in the game, they don't need any more buffs.
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I'd want to take a look at relevant magical beasts before suggesting making hour/level polymorphing into them possible.There's nothing outrageous there, I think, the main difference is probably that the flight+pounce combination (which no animal has) is easily aviable, e.g. via Griffon.
With 6 bestiaries and several assorted products with creatures, I think it is possible to find truly outrageous magical beasts when you combine them with a 12+ level druid and his spells.
Fortunately, the Behir is huge, so it isn't a valid creature for beast shape IV, but I think there are other creatures with a similar potential.
As for not getting beast shape 4...meh? Druid is already the most powerful class in the game, they don't need any more buffs.
You have forgotten to put the smile after your joke.
Powerful? Yes. Most powerful, no.
As for not getting beast shape 4...meh? Druid is already the most powerful class in the game, they don't need any more buffs.
Ignoring that Druid isn't evern close to being "the most powerful class in the game", granting access to BS4 for animals wouldn't notably increase the power.
With 6 bestiaries and several assorted products with creatures, I think it is possible to find truly outrageous magical beasts when you combine them with a 12+ level druid and his spells.
At least when it comes to natural attacks, there's nothing better than the animal options aviable. The forms with over 5 natural attacks are too big, and the forms with 5 attacks either don't have pounce or an uneven reach. There's a form with 4 attacks, pounce, and rake, but two of the attacks are secondary, so the advantage over the 3 primary attacks plus rake of dire tiger/allosaurus is negligible.
The main issue would probably be breath weapons, some of which (like the Gorgon's) could be very powerful.
I agree to an extent. Many magical beasts would be outside of theme, but others fit very well. Unicorn comes to mind as a quick thematic choice. But I get that making some kind of case by case rule becomes unwieldy.
Well, the one thing about magical beasts is that they're unnatural in some way, which goes against the nature theme of the class. Unicorns may be a protectors of forests, but they're not part of nature. That's why you don't use Knowledge (Nature) to identify them, but rather Arcana.
Would the feat become worth it if it not only opened up BS4 but also included "You add x additional magical beasts to your list of accessable forms, subject to GM approval. You may take this feat more than once, gaining x+1 additional forms each time you take it."?
Yes, but I'd expect it to be mainly used to turn into a Griffon or Lammasu, maybe a Dragonne or Androsphinx if you got the ability scores to make the roar abilities worth it. The GM could disallow those, but "you get to chose, except anything good" shouldn't be the default, in my opinion.
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With 6 bestiaries and several assorted products with creatures, I think it is possible to find truly outrageous magical beasts when you combine them with a 12+ level druid and his spells.At least when it comes to natural attacks, there's nothing better than the animal options aviable. The forms with over 5 natural attacks are too big, and the forms with 5 attacks either don't have pounce or an uneven reach. There's a form with 4 attacks, pounce, and rake, but two of the attacks are secondary, so the advantage over the 3 primary attacks plus rake of dire tiger/allosaurus is negligible.
The main issue would probably be breath weapons, some of which (like the Gorgon's) could be very powerful.
The breath weapons are a thing, but if you search all the Bestiary it is easier to find a magical beast with several useful abilities than to find an animal.
There are magical beasts that have multiple attacks together with all of pounce, grab, and constrict. If you allow a creature to constrict, release, attack with grab, and constrict again multiple times in a round it can deal a large amount of damage.