2e Upgrading Items


Pathfinder Society

Horizon Hunters 2/5 ***** Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley

Are there rules for upgrading items in Society? I know Runes and Special Materials can be upgraded, but can you upgrade, say, a Lesser Staff of Fire into a Greater Staff of Fire once you hit level 8? Could you do it with Crafting or can you just pay the difference in price?

If you have a link please provide it for reference for my players in the future.

Envoy's Alliance 5/5 5/55/5 ***

I am not aware of any rules for that in the Core Rulebook, and Society has not added any.

Grand Lodge 4/5 **** Venture-Captain, California—Sacramento

My understanding, based on when I was researching this for the guide's Downtime Crafting rules, is that only Runes, Special Materials, and other items that specifically list the option to upgrade them can be upgrade.

Everything else is buy a replacement.

(Personally I had been hoping to be able to upgrade sturdy shields.)

4/5 *****

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Jared Thaler wrote:


(Personally I had been hoping to be able to upgrade sturdy shields.)

SAME!!!!

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

I don't think this is going to happen, I suspect treasure budgets are built on the assumption that you'll be replacing obsolete gear with full-price new gear, rather than discounted due to upgrades. In other words, you're being paid enough to just buy the bigger version.

I don't really like that system, it feels a bit unnatural that we can't upgrade staves and shields and so forth to higher versions. But I'm pretty sure it's not accidental.

Horizon Hunters 2/5 ***** Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley

Okay, so they just added rules to upgrade items with Crafting in the new Errata.

Errata wrote:
Page 535: Craft Requirements. Add text about upgrading an item from a lower-level version into a higher-level version. "The GM might allow you to Craft a permanent item from a lower-level version of the same item as an upgrade. For example, you might upgrade a bag of holding from a type I to a type II bag, but you couldn’t upgrade a clear spindle aeon stone into an orange prism aeon stone. The cost for this upgrade is the full difference in Price between the items, and the Crafting check uses a DC for the item’s new level."

Since this says "The GM might allow" would this be available in Society? Crafting already has the GM set the DC for items, so it should be good right?

2/5 5/5 *****

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

Its a GM Discretion thing, which means we need a ruling from the OP leadership (not the VOs). Until there's a ruling, the default is that its not available.

4/5 ***** Venture-Lieutenant, Maryland—Hagerstown

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Would save me some GP on my sturdy shields.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

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I would really like to see this in the campaign in some way, even if it involves purchasing item upgrades via AcP.

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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I'm surprised, but it's a welcome change. I would like to see this enabled too, throwing away stuff to buy a higher version doesn't feel good.

Grand Archive 4/5 ****

+1 on this becoming an AcP boon.

1/5 5/55/5 *** Venture-Agent, Online—VTT

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I would rather see upgrading items be either fully in or fully out of the campaign than in partially via AcP.

2/5 5/5 *****

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My preferred resolution would be for OP to blanket allow those upgrades.

Save the AcP bonus boons for potentially some of the commonly hoped-for 'cross-grades' between similar, but not-same-track items that people often ask about. Handy Haversack->Bag of Holding type thing, or "+1 silver chain shirt" -> "Moonlit Chain" style thing (celestial armor is probably a more common question, but I picked an example that still fits within the level cap of current scenarios)

Sovereign Court 4/5 5/5 ** Venture-Lieutenant, Netherlands—Leiden

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Yeah, I don't really see the need to hide it behind an AcP wall either.

Grand Archive 4/5 ****

Lau Bannenberg wrote:
I'm surprised, but it's a welcome change. I would like to see this enabled too, throwing away stuff to buy a higher version doesn't feel good.

If you want you could treat this as selling it to a lower level pathfinder at a discount so that they can be better equipped...

2/5 5/5 *****

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

sounds like an alternate possibility for the bequeathal boon.

2/5 5/5 *****

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From This Post

James Case wrote:


4. The errata states that “the GM might allow you” to upgrade an item from a lower-level version to a higher-level version (for instance, upgrading a type I bag of holding to type II). This is allowed for Pathfinder Society.

Grand Lodge 4/5 ***** Venture-Captain, Missouri—Columbia

No need for AcP. That blows the doors open for upgrading items. Which stave to choose?

Grand Archive 4/5 ****

Sturdy shields just got a whole lot better...

2/5 5/5 *****

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Jared Thaler - Personal Opinion wrote:

Sturdy shields just got a whole lot better...

Definitely, I think they were the most 'fine-grained' in terms of levels within a now upgradable chain. Whereas before you might have to consider leap-frogging every other upgrade, now it makes sense to always stay current.

5/5 ***

Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

From the post by James Case in the Errata thread:

James Case wrote:


4. The errata states that “the GM might allow you” to upgrade an item from a lower-level version to a higher-level version (for instance, upgrading a type I bag of holding to type II). This is allowed for Pathfinder Society.

In practice does the GM need to sign off the crafting roll as being sucessful on the chronicle sheet if someone does this?

On a related note, can Hirelings craft for you?

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

With the new Chronicle format, I don't believe GMs sign-off on anything other than the bottom row.

But the result should be recorded on your Chronicle Sheet (or relevant spreadsheet).

I don't have an answer for your second question.

2/5 5/5 *****

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

As a GM, I'm still annotating how downtime is spent on Chronicle sheets, even though I don't think its required any more in some cases. I do ask players who are doing "more complicated" things (crafting, magical shorthand, etc) if their local region has a preferred format/verbiage, and I'll try to adapt my style to theirs if it makes it easier for consistency, etc.

Earned Income however is listed as part of the Variable Quantities which MUST be filled out by the GM. So the GM has to know the result of an Earned Income roll to add into the GP Gained box. Now that doesn't mean the GM has to record how the earned income total was arrived it, but for the sake of audiability/error catching I think GMs _should_ be annotating the # days, task level, degree of success, and skill proficiency level (if not trained) for every earned income roll.

My standard format EI:
"8 Days, Level 2, success (expert), 3sp/day = 2.4gp"

For Crafting:
"4 Days, prep for crafting (item name), item level N, degree of success(prof level), <GP remaining>"
"4 Days progress on craft, char level N, at NN.NN GP/day, XX.XX progress, YY.YY remaining"
(if the craft is carried over, I add "degree of success inherited from chronicle X-XX")

(And the raw materials (and formula if not already possessed) recorded in the the Items Bought section.

4/5 ****

Eric Nielsen wrote:


Earned Income however is listed as part of the Variable Quantities which MUST be filled out by the GM.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

That is an error in the guide. GMs do *not* need to fill out information related to down time. Especially as it is possible (for example in the case of chronicles applied later) that the down time will not be completed at the table.

GMs are, however, encouraged to assist their players, especially their new players, with determining the results of downtime.

4/5 ****

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Helvellyn wrote:

From the post by James Case in the Errata thread:

James Case wrote:


4. The errata states that “the GM might allow you” to upgrade an item from a lower-level version to a higher-level version (for instance, upgrading a type I bag of holding to type II). This is allowed for Pathfinder Society.

In practice does the GM need to sign off the crafting roll as being successful on the chronicle sheet if someone does this?

On a related note, can Hirelings craft for you?

If you mean can you use a hireling to make the craft check on your downtime, yes. It would still use up your days, and the hireling would need any necessary feats (though I believe you can supply any needed spells.)

Currently, my understanding is that the text that will go into the "Purchasing Guidelines" will indicate that you can use crafting to upgrade your items from one grade to another of an item, or you can pay the difference to have it done for you between sessions. You cannot use crafting (at this time) to upgrade an item from one item to a different named item.

Horizon Hunters 2/5 ***** Venture-Agent, California—Silicon Valley

Online Guide Team Lead - JTT wrote:
Eric Nielsen wrote:


Earned Income however is listed as part of the Variable Quantities which MUST be filled out by the GM.

Thank you for bringing that to my attention.

That is an error in the guide. GMs do *not* need to fill out information related to down time. Especially as it is possible (for example in the case of chronicles applied later) that the down time will not be completed at the table.

GMs are, however, encouraged to assist their players, especially their new players, with determining the results of downtime.

Will players need to make their rolls for Earn Income in the presence of a GM? Or can they just do it themselves in between games?

4/5 ****

Players are encouraged to make their rolls at the table. But not required. (and in some cases, such as when playing a pregen, are not able to.)

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Just record the d20 roll and add whatever modifiers when you apply the Chronicle later.

2/5 5/5 *****

Pathfinder Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Maps, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber

I've been recording a d20 result for pregens, IF the player is willing to commit to using it for earned income. If they think they might be crafting/boon downtiming on the character or aren't sure, I just record "8 Days downtime earned, to be resolved when applied to the built character"

Since pre-rolling a d20 and then building the modifier/skills/crafting project around it, with knowledge of the rolled d20 feels a little wrong to me -- and as the guide says, we don't have to annotate downtime anymore anyways. Ie using a pregen shouldn't effectively give an Investigator-like "Devise a Stratagem" for downtime rolls benefit.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Eric Nielsen wrote:
From This Post
James Case wrote:


4. The errata states that “the GM might allow you” to upgrade an item from a lower-level version to a higher-level version (for instance, upgrading a type I bag of holding to type II). This is allowed for Pathfinder Society.

The newest Society FAQ now limits this to just magic items (whereas the Pathfinder FAQ is just "items").

Is that an error? Or an intended change? Asking for a Sturdy Shield friend..

2/5 5/5 **

Nefreet wrote:
Eric Nielsen wrote:
From This Post
James Case wrote:


4. The errata states that “the GM might allow you” to upgrade an item from a lower-level version to a higher-level version (for instance, upgrading a type I bag of holding to type II). This is allowed for Pathfinder Society.

The newest Society FAQ now limits this to just magic items (whereas the Pathfinder FAQ is just "items").

Is that an error? Or an intended change? Asking for a Sturdy Shield friend..

Does it limit it or is it answering a specific question? I read it as the latter: Q: Can I pay the difference in magic items? A: Yes.

Scarab Sages 4/5

The other part of that FAQ is that the society has people who will craft it for you. That’s relevant for a character without crafting that wants to upgrade their sturdy shield to a higher level version.

A related question would be if you get a formula for an item on your chronicle, can someone at the society craft it for you provided you pay full price? There’s at least a couple of uncommon items that are only available as formulas when they do appear.

Sczarni 5/5 5/55/5 ***

Blake's Tiger wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Eric Nielsen wrote:
From This Post
James Case wrote:


4. The errata states that “the GM might allow you” to upgrade an item from a lower-level version to a higher-level version (for instance, upgrading a type I bag of holding to type II). This is allowed for Pathfinder Society.

The newest Society FAQ now limits this to just magic items (whereas the Pathfinder FAQ is just "items").

Is that an error? Or an intended change? Asking for a Sturdy Shield friend..

Does it limit it or is it answering a specific question? I read it as the latter: Q: Can I pay the difference in magic items? A: Yes.

Timeline of events:

• Errata now allows GM discretion to upgrade same-named items.

• James case rules that the "GM" for Society allows this.

• Society FAQ states you can only upgrade "magic items".

So it could be an error, or an intentional "our discretion now only allows magic items to be upgraded".

Unsure whether the FAQ supercedes James's statement or whether both can exist and be referenced. They do dislike players having to dig in the forums for answers that casual players might not know about.

Liberty's Edge 4/5 5/55/55/5 ****

Nefreet wrote:

With the new Chronicle format, I don't believe GMs sign-off on anything other than the bottom row.

But the result should be recorded on your Chronicle Sheet (or relevant spreadsheet).

I don't have an answer for your second question.

GMs no longer sign anything on Chronicles. Heck, the GM name is not even a required element.

2/5 5/5 **

Nefreet wrote:
• Society FAQ states you can only upgrade "magic items".

Just pointing out that it does not say "only" anywhere in the new FAQ.

Here's the full text Q & A:

Official PFS FAQ wrote:


Can I pay the cost difference to upgrade a magic item instead of using Craft to do it myself?

Yes. The Pathfinder Society has numerous crafters that assist their fellow agents. Use the rules for upgrading magic items on page 535 of the Core Rulebook.

It would be helpful if they put the mundane item ruling in there, too, but under the premise that specific answers apply to the specific question, this doesn't touch on mundane items at all, permitting or restricting.

4/5 ****

Nefreet wrote:
Blake's Tiger wrote:
Nefreet wrote:
Eric Nielsen wrote:
From This Post
James Case wrote:


4. The errata states that “the GM might allow you” to upgrade an item from a lower-level version to a higher-level version (for instance, upgrading a type I bag of holding to type II). This is allowed for Pathfinder Society.

The newest Society FAQ now limits this to just magic items (whereas the Pathfinder FAQ is just "items").

Is that an error? Or an intended change? Asking for a Sturdy Shield friend..

Does it limit it or is it answering a specific question? I read it as the latter: Q: Can I pay the difference in magic items? A: Yes.

Timeline of events:

• Errata now allows GM discretion to upgrade same-named items.

• James case rules that the "GM" for Society allows this.

• Society FAQ states you can only upgrade "magic items".

So it could be an error, or an intentional "our discretion now only allows magic items to be upgraded".

Unsure whether the FAQ supercedes James's statement or whether both can exist and be referenced. They do dislike players having to dig in the forums for answers that casual players might not know about.

I *believe* it is an error, being passed through the correct committee now.

Ironically, this does not prevent *PCs* from *crafting* upgrades to their mundane items, it only prevents PCs from paying an NPC to upgrade a mundane item.

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