odd character build Ninja / Mesmerist

[DeathBecomesus]

This is just a vague concept right now, and it is mostly for flavor.
I am seeking a ninja stealthy type character, but who also has some strange
occult psychic powers. From just a glance it looks like Mesmerist could be useful in manipulating opponents mind/thoughts.

Sneaky Ninja, who can "get into the mind" of others
Manipulate others

Just a question, would these two classes work together?
Ninja tricks that would be helpful?
Mesmerist tricks that would be helpful and fun to play?

Lets look at 5th level
3rd level Ninja/2nd Mesmerist

[VoodistMonk]

Umm, what is it, exactly, that you are looking for in Ninja? Stealth? You know that's a class skill for the Mesmerist, right?

Why not just be a Mesmerist and invest in Stealth?

[avr]

Splitting your levels 50/50 between two classes is usually a poor plan in PF optimising. If you have no plan and you're asking for ways to justify doing so you're probably headed for disaster.

Still - with the accomplished sneak attacker feat you could handle 2 level of mesmerist. Take that and play a ghoran with both racial archetypes (aromaphile, petal ninja) and you have a little synergy. It might not fit your image tho'.

[DeathBecomesus]

YOU are absolutely correct, this is not very well thought out.
NO plan to this.

Just an idea, that I have not spend much time looking into

[Dox of the ParaDox twins]

So what's the idea for the character
Answer these 3 questions and it'll help you figure out your vision.

What do I do out of combat
What do I do in combat
What is my aesthetic like

If you can answer those i can help you plan out your concept a little more concretely

[Scott Wilhelm]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Umm, what is it, exactly, that you are looking for in Ninja? Stealth? You know that's a class skill for the Mesmerist, right?

Why not just be a Mesmerist and invest in Stealth?

Or he could just be a Ninja and take some Rogue Talents. With say Honeyed Words and Coax Information, and a Mask of the Stony Demeanor, he can use Bluff instead of Intimidate, Roll twice and take the better result, and the mask gives him a +10 on attempts to lie. He can take Charmer and roll twice and take the better result for Diplomacy. With some other well-chosen magical boosts, you should be able to make everyone like you and believe everything you have to say.

[doc chaos]

Are you going for a ninja with "genjutsu" powers like the Sharingan? It might work if you can lessen the casting time on the gaze action.

[VoodistMonk]

If you are going to pick one, definitely pick the one with two good saves and 6th level casting... oh, and the one that isn't just a chained Rogue. Lol.

[Scott Wilhelm]

VoodistMonk wrote:

If you are going to pick one, definitely pick the one with two good saves and 6th level casting... oh, and the one that isn't just a chained Rogue. Lol.

Oh, I wasn't suggesting Chained Rogue. I was suggesting Ninja, and I wasn't even actually suggesting Ninja. I was pointing out that a single-class Ninja, or Chained Rogue for that matter, can do everything the OP mentioned.

AYMR, I don't generally do single-class D20 builds.

[Derklord]

DeathBecomesus wrote:

YOU are absolutely correct, this is not very well thought out.

NO plan to this.

Just an idea, that I have not spend much time looking into

Than let's do this properly: Without using class names, What do you want your character to be able to do? Don't start building a character with specific classes, start with abilities you want to have.

People tend to get hung up on class names, but in Pathfinder, there's often surprisingly little relation between the name of a class and what character the class is suited for. If you for instance want to imitate the falvor of the actual historical ninjas, the Ninja class is not the best class for that. If you want to go for the pop culture ninja, the Ninja class is even less suited. Note that your character can describe themself as a ninja in-game no matter their actual classes.

You especially don't need to take class levels in a rogueish class to be stealthy. Mesmerist has stealth as a class skill, and Vanish, Invisibility, and Silent Table on the spll list.

[VoodistMonk]

Scott, I was just saying that a Ninja IS a chained Rogue... it might as well just be an archetype. At least then it might have been compatible with UnChained Rogue, but it's not. UnChained Sylvan Trickster would be better than Ninja.

A Vanilla Mesmerist could pull this off better than a chained Rogue, alternative versions or otherwise.

A number of Bard archetypes could pull this off as well. Could probably do this with a Magus, too.

[Scott Wilhelm]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Scott, I was just saying that a Ninja IS a chained Rogue... it might as well just be an archetype.

I disagree.

VoodistMonk wrote:

A Vanilla Mesmerist could pull this off better than a chained Rogue, alternative versions or otherwise.

Pull what off? I think Derklord is right about this. I think we should here more about what the OP is trying to accomplish before we unzip and pull out our measuring tape.

[DeathBecomesus]

Thanks for the feedback

When I started this Concept, I originally was thinking Slayer with something from Occult classes.

Combat: Sniper type hiding in dark and long bow shots, and then sneaks away

In person (out of combat) : Manipulate others thoughts/mind, Con job, Lie/bluff
wanting to psychically gather info and manipulate others

Someone above asked about
What is my aesthetic like
I do not even know what you mean by this

Perhaps we shift this to Slayer/Mesmerist

I appreciate the response
Honestly this was kinda "on a whim" thought, then I started thinking more and more about it.

[avr]

An aesthetic is what sort of image you associate with the character and the way they act. From what you're saying here I think it might be someone muscular and unshaven, dressed in black leaning against a building, or Rasputin with a weapon.

Mesmerist as a class dip adds almost nothing to a slayer. Slayer as a class dip adds only a little to a mesmerist. If you want effective archery, stealth and a little psychic magic then something like slayer/psychic/esoteric knight prestige class, or a vanilla mesmerist, or a phantom blade spritualist could each do that in their own way.

[Scott Wilhelm]

DeathBecomesus wrote:

Combat: Sniper type hiding in dark and long bow shots, and then sneaks away

Half Elf, Arcane Training: Arcanist, Ancestral Arms: Orc Hornbow

Ancestral Arms is an Alternate Racial Trait that gives you a half-level in any 1 Arcane Spellcasting Class. That's enough to let you use any Magic Wand in that Class. Arcanists are a hybrid of Sorcerer and Wizard, so that means you are allowed to use any Sorcerer or Wizard Wand before you are even level 1.

Orc Hornbows are the best bows in the game. They are Long Composite Bows that inflict 2d6 Damage.

1Fighter1: Point Blank Shot, Precise Shot

Point Blank Shot is nice: +1 Attack and Damage when attacking opponents within 1 Range Increment, but Precise Shot is essential. That's the Feat that lets you fire into melee.

2F1Ninja1: Sneak Attack 1d6, Poison
3F1N2: Ki Pool, Ninja Vanishing Trick, Rogue Talent: False Attacker

The Ninja Vanishing Trick lets you turn Invisible for 1 Round as a Swift Action. This will just about guarantee that you will be able to use Stealth in Combat, no matter who is watching you, to find a nice hidy-hole to Snipe from. From there, you shoot people with Stealth: your targets don't get their Dex Mod to AC when you are invisible to them--Stealth--so you get to inflict your Sneak Attack Damage on top of your 2d6 Orc Hornbow. That only brings your Damage up to 3d6 at level 3, but that is quite respectable for Damage at level 3. You can keep taking levels in Ninja or some other Sneak Attack Class and keep bringing that SA Damage up.

So, normally, when you shoot from a Stealth position, you break Stealth unless you make a Stealth opposed by Perception Check at a -20. But the False Attacker Rogue Talent allows you to first make a simple Bluff vs. Perception Check. If that succeeds, then your target thinks your arrows came from somewhere else, and you automatically succeed on your Stealth vs. Perception Check. This means you can very reliably stay in your hidy-hole picking off targets with your high damage attacks vs opponents that don't get their Dex Mods to AC.

I have you using an Orc Hornbow because you said that's what you want, but Ancestral Arms would allow you to use a gun, and Arcane Training would allow you to use one of those Ranged Touch Attack Wands such as a Wand of Scorching Ray. When you can afford one of those, you can be making Ranged Touch Attacks vs. Flatfooted AC that automatically lock in your Sneak Attack Damage. Just try saying that out loud without your face splitting open in an evil grin!

DeathBecomesus wrote:

In person (out of combat) : Manipulate others thoughts/mind, Con job, Lie/bluff wanting to psychically gather info and manipulate others

As a Ninja, you have Bluff, Stealth, and Disguise as Class Skills. That gives you a +3 on those Skills.

As a Half Elf with Arcane Training, you can use any Sorcerer or Wizard Wand. Level 1 Wands are inexpensive as Magic Items go: 750 gp. You can buy a Wand of Change Self for 750gp and give yourself a +10 on all your Disguise Checks. A Mask of the Stony Demeanor gives you a +10 on attempts to lie. They're more expensive: 8000gp, more of a low-middle range magic item. Genrerally, though, magic items that give skill bonuses are cheap. 200gp for an Ioun Stone that grants a +1 on any 1 Skill. A Ring of the Diplomat gives you a +5 on Diplomacy Checks and cost 5000gp.

The point is as a Level 3 Character with levels in Ninja, you can start kitting yourself out to have very high bonuses in Bluff, Disguise, Stealth, and Diplomacy. With those Skills, you go anywhere you want, and no one will see you, when you appear, you can look like anyone you want, and when you start talking to people, they will probably like you from the get-go, tell you anything you want to know, and believe every lie you tell them.

So that's everything you want by level 3.

VoodistMonk wrote:

pick the one with two good saves

VM is right. Saving Throws are important. The character I showed you has a +2 Fort/+3 Reflex/+0 Will, and Will Saves are the most important Saves to have. There are Traits and Magic Items that give you Saving Throw Bonuses: load up on those. But after level 3, you should give serious thought to Feats and Class dips that give you Will Save Bonuses such as Monk, Magus, Bard, or something.

[Orodhen]

The Enigma Mesmerist archetype kinda mixes both classes together. It gives you more invisibility options, stealth bonuses, Sneak Attack, etc.

Just have to make sure to pick up Accomplished Sneak Attack.