Hi everyone,
My PFS Battledancer Swashbuckler always raises a silly question, so I wanted to have the community's point of view.
As a GM, when a character uses Perform (Dance) during combat:
- You disallow movement as per RAW Perform doesn't specify you can move.
- You force movement as dancing without moving is quite illogical.
- You allow movement as much as dancing by standing still.
If you allow movement:
- You allow the character to move normally like a standard Stride action.
- You impose a penalty (like half speed) as dancing is not the most efficient way of moving.
Thanks for your answers!
I think you are right that as per RAW you don't get to move. There is no text that mentions the ability to stride or step when gaining panache. Whether that is intended or not I don't know (Although personally I really think the panache and styles bit of the APG could do with a bit of a FAQ or tidy up).
For Home games I've allowed the player to count it either as a step or they can remain in place. I felt that if it allowed a full (or half) move it made it a little too powerful compared to the benefits from other styles.
Now this was based upon quite a strict language based reading of the rules around succeeding at a check and gaining panache. If the more permisive reading linked to game definitions and text turns out to be the correct one, for example: you can gain panache from attempting a Bon Mot against a mindless creature just by beating the DC (and similar with the Braggart's demoralise) then this would remove the Battledancers advantage around generating panache over those styles and I think allowing a move with the battledance would probably by fairer.
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In my humble opinion RAW Perform (Dance) very well specifies that you move, however unfortunately not how far:
Performance Additional Traits
Dance Move and visual
move (trait) An action with this trait involves moving from one space to another.
So, looking at other modes of movement that are not Strides, e.g. Climb or Swim, I think something like 5 or 10 foot base plus 5 foot per 20 foot of your land speed seems reasonable while dancing (no step because this would not cause AoO despite the move trait).
In my humble opinion RAW Perform (Dance) very well specifies that you move, however unfortunately not how far:
It doesn't specify it has to be a dance. Just a Performance Check which means you can use a performance (like sing) that doesn't provoke if you are already in melee.
I'm not really sure what the designer intent is with the panache generators. I do wonder if it is something that might be worth bringing up on the Twitch thread but Im not sure if that's a thing.
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For what its worth, in PFS my experience has been that every GM I've played under (I think about 5) has treated Perform Dance as
1) Movement for the purposes of whether or not you provoke
2) NOT movement in that you can't actually move
(obviously, Leading Dance is an exception to the above as it has specific rules).
It'd be weird to me if dancing didn't allow movement. It's not hard at all for a dancer to move 5 feet while dancing. In fact.. in many cases it'd be weird if they didnt.
...
Everyone has a different way of handling it. It looks like I'm good for asking every time my GM changes.
Bummer, I was expecting some kind of basic way of handling it I could stick to. I dislike to slow down an adventure for rule questions.
Thanks for your answers!
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I think this is the fifth thread where there is some debate/confusion around the various swashbuckler styles and the generation of Panache. It would certainly be nice to get some clarification for PFS games. Wonder if it's worth either a dedicated thread or a post in the ask questions on Twitch thread (As we can no longer request FAQs)?
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Way I see the RAW here, dancing to Perform gives the move trait but you do not move out of your current position since the description of Perform does not specify it as opposed, for example, to Shove which specifies it. Also most other actions to get Panache do not allow you to move and Shove only allows it on a success.
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I'll weigh in.
Perform is a single action that may be taken during the character's turn.
This leaves them two other actions to Stride, Strike, Step, or anything else, normally.
The character is thus "dancing" for their entire turn after using Perform.
Dunno if this helps.
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Move trait is also used when your movement is restricted within the same square, like when you stand up (which also has the move trait but doesnt move you in the grid)
It shouldn't be though as the trait specifically points out that it's "involves moving from one space to another". I know it gets slapped on some activities that are meant to activate reactions triggered by movement but they really shouldn't do that without changing the trait's definition.
So for me, RAW is that the trait says you must leave your space to use the activity. RAI is that it's there for movement triggers.
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If you want to move with a Perform check, this is the feat for you.
Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense to allow PCs who perform with Dance to get a benefit that PCs who use a different perform wouldn't benefit from.
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If you want to move with a Perform check, this is the feat for you.
Otherwise, it wouldn't make sense to allow PCs who perform with Dance to get a benefit that PCs who use a different perform wouldn't benefit from.
I'm sorry, but that feat tells me the opposite of what it tells you.
For me, it validates the idea that you move with your dance performance, but if you take that feat, you can attempt to draw your opponent into your dance performance and move him/her.
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Move trait is also used when your movement is restricted within the same square, like when you stand up (which also has the move trait but doesnt move you in the grid)It shouldn't be though as the trait specifically points out that it's "involves moving from one space to another". I know it gets slapped on some activities that are meant to activate reactions triggered by movement but they really shouldn't do that without changing the trait's definition.
So for me, RAW is that the trait says you must leave your space to use the activity. RAI is that it's there for movement triggers.
This! Regarding the rules governing activities that require the move trait the trait itself indeed seems strangely worded (possibly only minding all activities that include actual hex movement and forgetting about the rest) and the reason why many players are looking at questions like "can we move for zero hexes just to avoid certain effects, e.g. the Agitate spell vs AoO" or "can we move for more than zero hexes with, e.g. Performance (Dance)".