Base ability lost, what happens to Greater ability?

[Xavram5]

There are lots of base class/archtype abilities out there that, later in the class levels, get a "Greater" or "Improved" version of it.

Examples :
Inquistor : Bane/Greater Bane
Magus : Spell Combat/Improved Spell Combat
Summoner : Shield Ally/Greater Shield Ally

There are LOTS of these out there and my question is, if you take an ability that replaces the "Base" of one of these, what happens when you hit the level where you get the "Greater" version? Do you get the "Greater" version? or only the "Base"? Or is it "ability specific"?

Thanks!

[VoodistMonk]

There are Magus archetypes that get rid of Spell Recall, but not the improved thereof.

Some Alchemist give up Poison Use, but still get Swift Poisoning.

I read somewhere that if something states it only replaces Armor Training 1 (but not the Armor Training class feature as a whole), then you get Armor Training 1 when you would normally get 2. I don't know if that's how it works for everything, though.

[taks]

I think there's a FAQ on this somewhere. Basically, you get the one that was originally replaced when you would otherwise get the greater version. IOW, you push the lesser version off till later.

[Skrayper]

Well, Greater Bane as opposed to regular Bane is in the description:

Quote:

Greater Bane (Su)

At 12th level, whenever an inquisitor uses her bane ability, the amount of bonus damage dealt by the weapon against creatures of the selected type increases to 4d6.

Emphasis on the word "to" at the end. That implies that the bonus dice is increased from 2d6 TO 4d6. If it said "by", then it would jump from 2d6 to 6d6.

Quote:

Improved Spell Combat

At 8th level, the magus’s ability to cast spells and make melee attacks improves. When using the spell combat ability, the magus receives a +2 circumstance bonus on concentration checks, in addition to any bonus granted by taking an additional penalty on the attack roll.

This is an improvement over the original power.

Quote:

Greater Shield Ally

At 12th level, whenever an ally is within an eidolon’s reach, the ally receives a +2 shield bonus to its Armor Class and a +2 circumstance bonus on its saving throws. If this ally is the summoner, these bonuses increase to +4. This bonus does not apply if the eidolon is grappled, helpless, paralyzed, stunned, or unconscious.

In each of these cases, it improves upon the original ability - so to answer your question, both exist. The Greater versions just tack on additional effects to the already existing ability, or in these three examples:

1. An extra 2d6 damage on top of what you are already getting
2. An extra +2 on concentration checks
3. An extra +2/+4 bonus to AC and Saving Throws for the eidolon

All of those add more to the original ability, but not replace it. So you technically have both.

To answer your original question though:
If you don't have the base version anymore (taking an archtype that drops it), then it can be presumed you're losing the greater versions as well as the base versions no longer exist for you to improve. I imagine all archtypes with powers like these (where the greater version simply adds to the existing base power) already include "This replaces..." for each.

[Xavram5]

If there's a FAQ on this somewhere, man, I'd like to see that!

Look at this example, from the Arcane Bloodline powers...

Arcane Bloodrage (Sp)
At 4th level, when entering a bloodrage you can choose one of the following spells and apply its effects to yourself: blur, protection from arrows, resist energy (choose one energy type), or spider climb. These effects last for as long as you continue bloodraging, regardless of the spell’s normal duration.

Greater Arcane Bloodrage (Sp)
At 8th level, when entering a bloodrage, you can choose to apply the effects of either displacement or haste to yourself. This is in addition to arcane bloodrage, and otherwise works as that ability.

A player has taken an archtype/ability that replaces the "Arcane Bloodrage" at level 4...so when he gets to 8th, does he get "Greater Arcane Bloodrage"

[Skrayper]

I don't see any archetypes that replace the blood rage ability...

[Belafon]

Ultimate Magic page 14 wrote:

If an archetype replaces a class ability that is part of a series of improvements or additions to a base ability (such as a barbarian’s uncanny dodge or a ranger’s favored enemy), the next time the character would gain that ability, it counts as the lower-level ability that was replaced by the archetype.

[Xavram5]

Skrayper, look at the Primalist archtype. That's the one that removed his "Arcane Bloodrage", because he took the Rage Powers at 4th...so the question became, would he be able to get Greater Arcane Bloodrage at 8th if he didn't have Arcane Bloodrage.

I still think he WOULD get it, but its murky...

[Skrayper]

Xavram5 wrote:

Skrayper, look at the Primalist archtype. That's the one that removed his "Arcane Bloodrage", because he took the Rage Powers at 4th...so the question became, would he be able to get Greater Arcane Bloodrage at 8th if he didn't have Arcane Bloodrage.

I still think he WOULD get it, but its murky...

It doesn't replace it, it alters bloodline powers instead. It has no effect on bloodrage.

Quote:

Primal Choices: At 4th level and every 4 levels thereafter, a primalist can choose to take either his bloodline power or two barbarian rage powers. If the primalist chooses rage powers, those rage powers can be used in conjunction with his bloodrage, and his bloodrager level acts as his barbarian level when determining the effect of those bloodrage powers and any prerequisites. Any other prerequisites for a rage power must be met before a primalist can choose it. This ability does not count as the rage power class feature for determining feat prerequisites and other requirements.

This ability alters the bloodline class feature.

It doesn't affect those bloodrage powers at all. It alters this portion of bloodline:

Quote:

The bloodrager gains bloodline powers at 1st level, 4th level, and every 4 levels thereafter. The bloodline powers a bloodrager gains are described in his chosen bloodline. For all spell-like bloodline powers, treat the character’s bloodrager level as the caster level.

It can be used in conjunction with bloodrage, but that's it. No need to fret. They're losing the 1st level power to get the option for rage powers.

[vhok]

i remember an faq but it was specifically only about fighter armor training

[SheepishEidolon]

I can't find any FAQ, but Belafon's quote from Ultimate Magic already covers the question perfectly.

Advanced Class Guide has such a text, too, but oddly Advanced Player's Guide and Ultimate Combat don't. Maybe it's the age of APG and the limited space in UC (archetypes are descrived in a single paragraph).

[Dragonborn3]

Xavram5 wrote:

Skrayper, look at the Primalist archtype. That's the one that removed his "Arcane Bloodrage", because he took the Rage Powers at 4th...so the question became, would he be able to get Greater Arcane Bloodrage at 8th if he didn't have Arcane Bloodrage.

I still think he WOULD get it, but its murky...

Despite being called Greater Arcane Bloodrage, its not actually an improvement. He still gets it, and it does what it says it does.