It says to use the current map.
At the start of the turn you have map 0,so you perform 2 strikes with 0 map, if the second weapon is agile.
If not, map 0 and map -2.
After have performed the double slice, you get map -10.
If you have the graceful poise feat, as well as an agile weapon for your second attack, it counts instead aw only one attack, and because so it gives just a -5 map after its use.
I didn't mention MAP. I mentioned proficiency for the weapon and (non)agile. A sword and board fighter has higher proficiency in one weapon group (swords for example). If he uses double slice with two longswords, you have 0, -2 due to non-agile. If he uses Sword and shield, he'll have 0,-4, due to non-agile and lesser proficiency in the shield vs the sword.
FOr all other martials, who have sword and shield on the same prof level, it is effectively only a 0,-2 due to non-agile.
I think hammers are also worth consideration, bludgeoning is a better damage type and prone on a critical is nice.
Twin parry isn't worth it unless you use a parry weapon, and there's no weapon group with a parry weapon and good main hand weapon.
Personally double slice is the only feat to take at low levels, and it's all you really need, so I'd take a dedication to do something else. That depends what your friend wants to do, dandy for skills, blessed one for healing, a caster dedication for shield (much better than twin parry) and spells.
Otherwise blind fight at level 8 is worth taking.
Agile grace at 10. Two weapon flurry at 14. Graceful poise at 16. Are all worth taking, but they really aren't essential, you still want to double slice for most of your savage and they don't help that.
If you get to 16 retraining to twin parry and taking twin defense is an option.
Honestly all you really need is double slice, you can do literally anything with your feats, the two weapon feats help your third action, but you're good with just double slice.
So consider what else you might like to do other than just dual wield. Literally all you feats (except double slice) are free for that.
If going all out for damage, getting sneak attack from rogue dedication and using two agile weapons with Agile grace, Two weapon flurry, and Graceful poise will do more damage on a full attack, but that's not until very high level.
Taking dual weapon warrior for flensing slice at 8 also gives something good for a third action sometimes.
I understood everything except for the "If going all out for damage, getting sneak attack from rogue dedication and using two agile weapons with Agile grace.." how come you need two agile weapons? Wouldn't just a warhammer and a light hammer work with Agile Grace?
I understood everything except for the "If going all out for damage, getting sneak attack from rogue dedication and using two agile weapons with Agile grace.." how come you need two agile weapons? Wouldn't just a warhammer and a light hammer work with Agile Grace?
It depends. I think for the fighter you're probably right, because the feats available to the fighter doesn't have you make multiple attacks with each weapon.
Whereas, for the ranger you have feats that require you to make multiple attacks with each weapon, and so it's beneficial to not have as much of a multiple attack penalty and thus have both weapons be agile.
However, I'm not positive that the fighter doesn't have options that require them to make multiple attacks with both weapons.
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I understood everything except for the "If going all out for damage, getting sneak attack from rogue dedication and using two agile weapons with Agile grace.." how come you need two agile weapons? Wouldn't just a warhammer and a light hammer work with Agile Grace?It depends. I think for the fighter you're probably right, because the feats available to the fighter doesn't have you make multiple attacks with each weapon.
Whereas, for the ranger you have feats that require you to make multiple attacks with each weapon, and so it's beneficial to not have as much of a multiple attack penalty and thus have both weapons be agile.
However, I'm not positive that the fighter doesn't have options that require them to make multiple attacks with both weapons.
Double slice, two weapon flurry is the usual combo at high level (14) which requires both weapons to be agile for a fighter. A ranger gets that with impossible flurry (18). Until these level, you can get by with one agile weapon, by using the non-agile once and the agile for all other attacks.
Ohh, I can't find where it says both weapons must be agile for two weapon flurry and double slice?
Ohh, I can't find where it says both weapons must be agile for two weapon flurry and double slice?
It's not required the weapon be agile ever, but you benefit from reduced MAP. In general, reduced attack penalty (which is like an attack bonus) is much more important than damage dice. So in general, if you're going to suffer MAP on both your weapons you're probably better off to switch to agile weapons.
Two Weapon Flurry has the press trait, meaning it can't be until after an attack and taking MAP. So you would benefit from agile.
Double slice is the same, but doesn't have the press trait. And as mentioned, double slice would usually before the first action followed by two weapon flurry.
Ya so I could double slice with Warhammer/Light hammer, then two weapon flurry with Light Hammer twice right?
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Ya so I could double slice with Warhammer/Light hammer, then two weapon flurry with Light Hammer twice right?
Nope. Two Weapon Flurry says you have to make an attack with each weapon, so one of your Two-Weapon Flurry attacks would use the Warhammer's very inaccurate MAP instead of the Light Hammer's not as inaccurate MAP.
Ohh ic, so maybe MCing and grabbing Twin Takedown might be an option, although spending an action to Hunt Prey is a killer and is likely the deal breaker.
Two agile weapons is needed for sneak attack. It's not worth spending an action to hunt prey.
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Ohh ic, so maybe MCing and grabbing Twin Takedown might be an option, although spending an action to Hunt Prey is a killer and is likely the deal breaker.
Twin takedown, two weapon flurry, double slice all have the same req: Attack once with each weapon.
For fighter, until lvl 14, it's best to: DS, Att(, hasted Att). WIth Agile Grace, or sneak attack from Rogue MC, two agile weapons work best for lower MAP. After level 14, with DS, TWF, two agile weapons is the best way to go.
For Ranger, the same with Twin Takedown. TT, att, att(, hasted att). After level 12 you can use Second Sting, which is pretty useful. Until you get to lvl 18 where you need to attack with both weapons, then two agile weapons work best. With Rogue MC for sneak, you can still use agile, non-agile combo until that time, depending on party setup (buffs and debuffs) as you can choose to take a weapon with a good crit effect for your first attack (Warhammer, Flickmace, Pick).
DS, TT or any other combi with two weapon attack feats means double agile or suffer a high MAP for the attacks.
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One of the potential benefits of two-weapon fighting is having a wider variety of traits and damage types to draw on. People tend to only use a single weapon type so that they don't have one of their weapons lagging behind in proficiency, but there's a couple ways around that that can be interesting.
For example, if you want to go "sword and board", you could choose shields as your Fighter Weapon Mastery / Weapon Legend option, then pick up the Bounty Hunter Dedication and Tools of the Trade. Since Tools of the Trade says "Whenever you gain a class feature that grants you expert or greater proficiency in a given weapon or weapons, you also gain that proficiency in the weapons listed" you can can now two weapon fight with a shield and whip while having both at Master/Legendary proficiency with the critical specializations unlocked, as well as opening up a neat ranged option in bolas that will also be hitting at Master/Legendary proficiency with the crit-spec unlocked. So now you've got a Master/Legendary option for all three damage types, lots of useful weapon traits available, and your ranged attacks are hitting at the same proficiency level as your melee options (though your main agile weapon is the sap, which is less sexy for a TWF).
You can do similar things with Gladiator Dedication + Performative Weapons Training, Mauler Dedication (good for TWF with a shield and bastard sword, staff, gnome hooked hammer, katana, or dwarven waraxe, but none of the other feats will be useful to a TWF character so don't do this if you're eyeing any other archetypes), Pirate Dedication + Pirate Weapon Training, Viking Dedication + Viking Weapon Familiarity + Viking Weapon Specialist (less efficient than other options but not a bad archetype if you want to TWF with a shield anyways), and Weapon Improviser Dedication.
War hammer and light hammer is pretty much your only choice.
What about if you could get a hold of a Urumi and a scourge? Or would that damage still be less then dual hammers? Both obviously have the same Crit specialization effect