Hi.
One of my NPC, a recurrent minion of the main villain, is a level 13 drow with some levels of classic fighter and some levels in the master of chains prestige class (3.5).
I did this character this way when we were starting to play pathfinder several years ago.
However, I think it is better to rebuild this character from scratch because I find the master of chains class a bit lackluster.
The character has the following traits:
He was a noble drow who became a slave and was severely tortured, so he learned how to fight with chains that are still bonded to him. Also, all of this broke his mind, so he has an obsession with fighting to survive.
In previous encounters, this villain fought against our party while hanging in chains. He was not a spellcaster (besides some racial spell-like abilities). He is also a kind of nemesis for one of my party players (a very strong samurai orc with a mythic, spellcasting, intelligent katana...).
I recently discovered many spikes chain feats, the kyton bloodrager bloodline, combat tricks, and so on. The problem is that this requires lots of feats. It is partially solved through the fighting class, but any dipping in other classes is encouraged. For example, there are some kyton style chains that would be good with monk class levels (or not?)
So I want to ask if somebody has tried something similar, and what your suggestions are for a spiked chain acrobatic character. Also, any advice to encourage the nemesis flavor against the samurai orc is welcome.
Thank you so much for your attention and participation.
Ok, to summarize for myself (did I miss anything?):
1) Level 13 (meaning roughly CR 13)
2) Drow noble
3) Spiked chain user
4) Nemesis to katana-wielder
5) Acrobatic
2) Drow noble
Let's start with the race: Drow are underhanded and will never fight at fair odds. They will use darkness, poison, dirty tricks, slaves and "allies" to avoid risking their own life.
Darkness is built-in. A few doses of poison are something a level 13 NPC can easily afford. Dirty tricks mean investing some feats, I'd go for Quick Dirty Trick - blinding a foe with your first strike helps to prolong the fight. Disarm, sunder and trip are further options to make PCs' lifes horrible without killing them outright. And for a boss fight you should have additional creatures anyway - so slaves and / or allies are covered. Maybe there is a priestess who finds herself attracted to him and will heal him as long as she finds it worth the trouble.
3) Spiked chain user
Spiked chain is an interesting weapon for sure. The disarm and trip properties encourage to use these two maneuvers (see also 2)). Crit range and multiplier are lousy (20/x2), so feats about criticals can be ignored, freeing up feat slots for other things. The weapon can be used with Weapon Finesse, which fits well to 5).
You could go for a straight +2 or +3 weapon (to improve damage output and chances for disarm / sunder / trip) or a +1 toxic one (+2 poison DC, 25% chance to preserve poison once on hit).
4) Nemesis to katana-wielder
To become a nemesis, it helps to threaten what's important for your foe. In this case it's the weapon: The poor half-orc should have to deal with disarm or sunder attempts, and he might find himself the center of attention for both the nemesis and his minions.
5) Acrobatic
Acrobatic can mean a lot of different things in Pathfinder. I'd go for old-fashioned Mobility and Spring Attack. Since your drow doesn't want to be cornered, it makes sense he keeps moving, leaving the danger to his minions. Spring Attack's damage is rather low in comparison to a full attack, so you might want to augment it with poison.
1) Level 13 (meaning roughly CR 13)
If you want to stick with level 13 and drow noble, you end up with CR 13. I'd look into Bestiary table 1-1 what the recommended values for such a creature are: 180 HP, AC 28, high attack bonus of +22, average damage of 45 to 60 per round, saves from 12 to 16.
I built some drow in the past and they usually had too little HP first. So Toughness is a must-have, and you better get some Con bonus on the belt - if wealth is scarce, let him drink a potion of bear's endurance instead. AC and attack bonus shouldn't be much trouble for a fighter. Damage output will be ok with Power Attack (so you need Str 13+, but it could come from the belt). For the saves you might need a solid cloak of resistance.
Consider PC wealth. It will increase CR by 1, but give you way more room to add proper items to him.
Class choice
I'd go for plain fighter since this can be interesting enough, given the many feats and magic items. A possible feat breakdown would be:
Dirty Fighting or Combat Expertise (Int 13)
- Improved Disarm (alternative: Improved Sunder)
- Improved Dirty Trick (alternative: Improved Trip)
-- Quick Dirty Trick
Weapon Focus
- Weapon Specialization
-- Greater Weapon Focus
--- Greater Weapon Specialization
Power Attack
- Powerful Poisoning (+4 poison DC in your case)
Dodge
- Mobility
-- Spring Attack
Toughness
Summary
The drow should have some minions with him. He will try to keep moving and pick on weak targets or on the half-orc. His damage output is intended to be only mediocre (so use full-attacks without maneuvers as a last resort), but he makes it up with poison and two combat maneuvers. Make sure the HP and the saves are good enough, otherwise he drops too soon.
If the battle is important, you might want to simulate it on your own: What will be the battleground, who starts where - and most importantly: What will the players likely do?
Thank you for your detailed imput and fast feedback.
Ok, to summarize for myself (did I miss anything?):
1) Level 13 (meaning roughly CR 13)
2) Drow noble
3) Spiked chain user
4) Nemesis to katana-wielder
5) Acrobatic
More and less you nailed it. The only two things I may qualify is that the drow, despite being a noble-scion one, now he is a mad bodyguard because of her tortured background. Thus, he wont have minions, although he is always near of his mother, a witch drow.
2) Drow nobleDarkness is built-in. A few doses of poison are something a level 13 NPC can easily afford. Dirty tricks mean investing some feats,
I have never considered poison for him!!! (maybe because I, as a GM, hate poison rules). This fits the character.
Disarm, sunder and trip are further options to make PCs' lifes horrible without killing them outright.
This, and your previous point, gave me one idea. Monks can have those feats by free. And there is one monk archetype focused in poisoning, the black asp monk.
There is one style feats for monk (kyton style) that allow to use a spiked chain within the flurry of blows.I have to experiment with all the feat possibilities.
3) Spiked chain user
Spiked chain is an interesting weapon for sure. (...)
You could go for a straight +2 or +3 weapon (to improve damage output and chances for disarm / sunder / trip) or a +1 toxic one (+2 poison DC, 25% chance to preserve poison once on hit).
I didn't know about toxic weapons. This can be handy, because the orc samurai (yes, an orc, not semi-orc) has a lot of FORT (and resolve)
4) Nemesis to katana-wielderTo become a nemesis, it helps to threaten what's important for your foe. In this case it's the weapon: The poor half-orc should have to deal with disarm or sunder attempts...
The samurai orc has this covered. The weapon has that "calling" ability that allows him to summon it. But the drow don't know about this, of course.
5) Acrobatic
Acrobatic can mean a lot of different things in Pathfinder. I'd go for old-fashioned Mobility and Spring Attack.
This could work, and also mobility can be gained as a monk feat. But when I said acrobatic I meant "fighting while hanging on a chain" stuff.
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one idea is put the weapon modification on the spiked chain to put it in the close weapon group, and take brawler levels for effective TWF with the spiked chain
dance of chains is a good feat and maybe a chain coat
or 3 levels of unchained rogue to add dex to damage instead of dance of chains
alternatives include weapon master fighter, or warpriest for lots of feats and maybe swift action buffs
Ok, a witch drow as ally is not bad, since she can support him in multiple ways. Maybe she has minions she could bring into battle...
Maybe the biggest issue with poison is the slow application: You need a standard action to add a single dose to a weapon. I didn't find a good way to fix that with a feat, but there is fleshcrafting (very thematic for drow), more precisely poison fangs for 12k gold. Three times per day as a free action is good enough for a single tough encounter.
Yup, black asp monk sounds like a plan. You will lose a few feats compared to fighter, but gain several thematic powers in return.
I happen to have a samurai among my players. Resolve is pretty strong - but keep in mind it works only once per round. If the samurai is hit by multiple effects each round (such as a witch spell or another drow's poison), the player will have to make tough decisions.
When it comes to maneuvers, you can actually save a bit of feats by going for sunder instead of disarm (and opting out of dirty trick and trip). This way you don't need Combat Expertise or Dirty Fighting anymore. Power Attack not only unlocks Improved Sunder but also options like Pushing Assault.
Ok, understood the "hanging in chains" part now. Since this is quite unusual, maybe repeat it on the next encounter, in some variant - for the recognition factor...
I guess the first thing I want to remind you of is that in 3.5, Spiked Chain is a Reach Weapon, but in Pathfinder, it's not.
(...)
I'm just throwing that out there: your 3.5 Spiked Chain doesn't exist in Pathfinder, so I'm exploring options for a chain fighter.
Thanks, I am aware of this, that is the reason I want to simulate the 3.5 master of chains prestige class.
Your listed weapons are interesting, but my players already have played against this foe in three times. I'd prefer to keep the spiked chain by the moment. The only one option is making it a fighter, chose the flail weapons training, and baroom brawler feat to justify the change of weapons proficiency.
Actually the baroom brawler option seems a lot of fun, so maybe I make him a full brawler, with the kyton style feat. This way, I can use a chain as part of the brawler flurry, while having several bonus feats and martial flexibility extra feats.
This also fits with the nemesis concept, because the orc samurai has baroom brawler as a feat, and so the drow can choose feats to counter the new feats chosen by the orc.
Also, with martial flexibility, I will be able to pick every opcion you suggested... in the same combat!
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I believe going 4 levels of unchained rogue would work well wit this build, here is why-
1. It fits the theme of the character, screams rogue type to me.
2. Weapon training- with this, you get weapon finesse for free AND dex to damage with the spiked chain. (this is increased to 1 1/2 dex, just like strength for two handed weapons).
3. debilitating injury is good debuff if you can get it, and if you go for the dirty trick line it would be "fairly" easy to get, not counting the flanking you could get from slave "mooks".
This makes him hit harder than one would expect, but doesn't need to be the main area. If you want feats, take a the combat feat rogue talent and weapon training rogue talent, this nets you 4 feats in 4 levels like a fighter.
pros-
potential for 5 feats, or 3 feats and two "abilities"
2d6 sneak attack and a debuff
dex to hit/damage with spiked chain for free
skills- less useful to NPC normally, but recurring characters can get a lot out of good skills.
all at the cost 1 BaB, and ~8 hp and some fort compared to a fighter, which you could now take 9 levels in and have weapon training 2.
from here, you have 9 levels to do with as you would, fighter is certainly a great option, but so would be monk.
either way, I think 3-4 levels of unchained rogue is a great option for your NPC. Especially if you stay with spiked chain.
as for fighter, the mobile fighter is nice for fighters that want the "mobile combat" aesthetic. Though you do lose a fair bit. Fighter levels would make him better at "fighting", hence the name, however monk levels would make him more rounded (likely harder to hit/pin down) Fighter levels can give you choices with feat lines such as taking both improved/greater trip/dirty trick. Monk isn't far behind but is more limited in bonus feat choices.
either way, I think 3-4 levels of unchained rogue is a great option for your NPC. Especially if you stay with spiked chain.
Actually, the original 3.5 build for that character has a couple levels of rogue. So yes, it will fit the character, but now even with better features than before. Seeking for some rogue archetypes that replace dangersense and trapfinding, the thug is interesting.
Fighter levels can give you choices with feat lines such as taking both improved/greater trip/dirty trick. Monk isn't far behind but is more limited in bonus feat choices.
Why not brawler? Martial flexibility allows for several feats for free the moment I need it. Since this character chan use all their diary uses of martial flexibility in that combat (which happens early at morning), this would give him some advantage. Also, I don't think ki powers fit the character (he got mad because of torture).
The boxer brawler archetype could also fit the character.|
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You only need 1 level in brawler to gain access to the standard action feat. Now I'm not saying that brawlers are better or worse, just that I've never really enjoyed one. But I think either one would work well really. I just don't like the idea of relying on a build that requires limited resources. But this is a NPC so that's less of an issue.
As for archetypes for rogues, I don't remember off the top of my head, rake may be a good one IIRC.
You only need 1 level in brawler to gain access to the standard action feat. Now I'm not saying that brawlers are better or worse, just that I've never really enjoyed one. But I think either one would work well really. I just don't like the idea of relying on a build that requires limited resources. But this is a NPC so that's less of an issue.
As for archetypes for rogues, I don't remember off the top of my head, rake may be a good one IIRC.
If I go the brawler route, I will pick at least 6 levels on brawler, so he can use martial flexibility as a swift action. This is what I mean by extra feats.
Other brawler archetypes besides the strong-side boxer (better trip, and use chains for defense) are the steel-breaker (better sunder and disarm, and the sundering thing can be related with his ex-slave past)
The rake rogue archetype is good too.
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If you forget the Kyton Bloodline and just dip 1 lev. Blood Conduit Id Rager (anger) Bloodrager instead you can get power attack and improved trip as bonus feats. You would properly want extra rage, but then you have more levels for other classes and more feat slots open.
Beaware that power attack are only available during rage.
If you dont need str. for other feats you could lower it a bit.
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If you forget the Kyton Bloodline and just dip 1 lev. Blood Conduit Id Rager (anger) Bloodrager instead you can get power attack and improved trip as bonus feats. You would properly want extra rage, but then you have more levels for other classes and more feat slots open.
Beaware that power attack are only available during rage.
If you dont need str. for other feats you could lower it a bit.
I forgot to mention the urban bloodrager archtype of course.
I forgot to mention the urban bloodrager archetype of course.If you forget the Kyton Bloodline and just dip 1 lev. Blood Conduit Id Rager (anger) Bloodrager instead you can get power attack and improved trip as bonus feats. You would properly want extra rage, but then you have more levels for other classes and more feat slots open.
Be aware that power attacks are only available during rage.
If you don't need str. for other feats you could lower it a bit.
Thanks. Since the character is a bit of mad, I wouldn't make him a conscious caster (like the id bloodrager). In fact, the untouchable bloodrager fits better.
Bloodrager was in my sight mainly due to the kyton bloodline, because its bloodline powers are very similar to the master of chains prestige class from 3.5 (the character was originally this): he climbs chains, he has armor with chains, etc.
Also, thanks to having "kyton blood", I would allow him to pick the monster feat "Nightmare Chains" (this would be related to the character's boss, so my players won't be surprised by this at all).
The problem with bloodrager is the lack of feats, although I could pick spiked chain proficiency and dirty trick as bonus feats with kyton bloodline.
The bloody-knuckled rowdy also receives improved unarmed strike as a bonus feat and a style feat in level 2. This would allow him to pick kyton style for free, but then I would need a couple of more levels to make use of that. Also, I can always multiclass with some monk levels (in one archetype that skips unarmed strike which doesn't exist...)