If you have Magical Trickster, and you use Eldritch shot, does the Sneak attack apply twice (both on the arrow and on the spell)?
Eldritch shot : "... using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell..."
Magical trickster : "... When you succeed at a spell attack roll..."
RAW : as you don't get to make a spell attack roll for your spell, it seems magical trickster wouldn't work.
Seems right? Anyone know about RAI?
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I think your assessment is correct, here. Since Eldritch Shot makes only one attack roll and there is no spell attack roll, Sneak Attack applies only once.
I can't speak to RAI, but it would strike me as strange to have Sneak Attack apply more than once to a single attack. Maybe that's just 1e experience speaking, though.
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I agree you only get it once. It also falls under the "if that interpretation seems too good to be true it is." It would seem too strong to get double dip on sneak attach with only one attack.
Yes, it would probably be too strong.
But wanted to be sure ;).
Thanks
Isn't also true the opposite?
I know you just roll once to determine the outcome of both arrow and spell, but isn't also true that compared to a double attack it's something meant to occour less than often?
For example, a flanking rogue with double slice will be able to roll 2 attacks with no map.
By rolling 2 attacks, chances to get a partial hit or critical hit are higher ( doubled since you roll twice?) than rolling just once
I mean, unless I am missing something, it doesn't seem to be "too good to be true".
It's because Eldritch Shot already rivals a full attack as far as damage is concerned. I have an Eldritch Archer Ranger and his ES+cantrip does as much damage as Flurry Hunted Shot + Strike + Strike. It's even higher with a spell slot. Add on double sneak attack and that is massively high damage output.
An eldritch archer also has a higher chance to double crit (.05) than Double slice (.0025). Then we take into account that Double Slice is a melee attack, meaning you can move and double hit, but the you are stuck there for a whole turn risking a full attack by the monster, whereas Eldritch Shot uses a bow range increment. At 60 feet, a creature might use all 3 actions just to close.
Really Double Slice is a great argument for NOT applying sneak attack twice as DS only applies precision damage once.
I absolutely disagree. It is 2 separate attacks. Lets break it down investment versus result. Eldritch archer with magical trickster is a 2 feat investment. The attack with an 19 dex and 18 chr(figuring at 6th lvl they've upped both since eldritch was their plan) lets also figure a 14 str and composite bow. Now first round we will assume they got the jump amd surprise attacks allows for the sneak. Thats 2d8(striking bow) + 2d6(sneak) +1 (str) at a +15 attack(expert bow 6th lvl 19 dex and a +1 potency) lets assume telekinetic projectile since its the highest damaging cantrip that's 3d6(spell) 2d6(sneak) +3 chr at a +12 attack average 36 to 39 damage if both hit. Now here's the problem. How do they get sneak the next round? Its a 3 action attack so you cant create a distraction and you can demoralize which wouldnt work anyway unless they also inveated in dread striker that they would need to do at 8th lvl not 6th. So then they can either set up a sneak attack for the 3rd round. Lets says they diversion strike diversion and have confabulator. That's just one attack of 17 average damage. So 2 rounds 54 damage.
Now lets assume a scoundrel rogue. Same stats but shortsword. 1st round same thing surprise 2 attacks at +15 and +11(only 1 less on the hit than the spell) 8d6+4 damage total for an average of 32 damage. Next round is a feint and repeat so 2 round average of 64 damage. And thats with zero feat investment. Of course he'll take the 2nd lvl feat for scoundrel so not only is he beating the average damage by 5 a round he also gets to debuff. 3rd round he can do a third attack at an abysmal hit or do an assuranced trip. So for class feat and one skill feat he's got more damage and some good debuffs.
Does it still sound overpowered to you? But now we will explain it with RAW instead of balance.
Magical trickster "When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage, you can add your sneak attack damage to the damage roll"
Now eldritch shot does explicitly say "determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell" so the effect of the strike would be a ranged attack that dealt damage to a flat footed target so add the precision damage. The spell then meets its requirements you would then add the sneak attack damage to the spell damage roll.
Also, double slice is a great example for why it would be applied. 2 actions 2 attacks but adds the note of only apply precision once. Twin feint, however, 2 actions 2 attacks and if you had the first attack with flat footed then you absolutely do get sneak attack twice. So by wording feats that only apply once have the wording in them. Since eldritch shot doeant have the wording....
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There is only one attack roll. Hence you only apply Sneak Attack once.
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Gisher wrote: There is only one attack roll. Hence you only apply Sneak Attack once. I don't agree, it's trigger isn't a roll. If I have an ability where I roll once and strike 2 different creatures do I only sneak attack one or both: to me, it's both. Linking rolls IMO doesn't alter it being treated as separate subordinate attacks. In fact you can different degrees of success for those attacks with Eldritch Shot: for instance with Shocking Grasp you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack roll with shocking grasp so it's possible to hit with it only or crit with it while the strike only hits. Different attacks.
I could have sworn someone asked this question like six or seven months ago about the Swipe feat and everyone agreed riders like SA would apply to both targets there.
Squiggit wrote: I could have sworn someone asked this question like six or seven months ago about the Swipe feat and everyone agreed riders like SA would apply to both targets there. *raises hand*
Investigator and feats like Swipe thread.
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graystone wrote: Gisher wrote: There is only one attack roll. Hence you only apply Sneak Attack once. I don't agree, it's trigger isn't a roll. If I have an ability where I roll once and strike 2 different creatures do I only sneak attack one or both: to me, it's both. Linking rolls IMO doesn't alter it being treated as separate subordinate attacks. In fact you can different degrees of success for those attacks with Eldritch Shot: for instance with Shocking Grasp you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack roll with shocking grasp so it's possible to hit with it only or crit with it while the strike only hits. Different attacks. I apologize for my poor wording. I should have said that there is a single attack check rather than a single attack roll. I got distracted by that pesky real life. :)
I agree that the Investigator using Swipe would get to apply Strategic Strike to both opponents, but I'm not sure that the same reasoning applies here. The Investigator makes a single attack roll, which is modified by Devise a Stratagem when calculating the attack result. That is then used in two independent attack checks against two different opponents. Strategic Strike applies to both because the Int modifier was part of the attack result that was used in both attack checks.
As I read Eldritch Shot, there is only a single attack roll, a single attack roll result, and a single attack check against a single opponent. That suggests to me that Sneak Attack would only apply once.
I'll walk through my reasoning using your Shocking Grasp example.
Quote: Eldritch Shot
You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell do not occur immediately but are imbued into the bow you’re wielding. Make a Strike with that bow. Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but you don’t apply the penalty until after you’ve completed both attacks.
Breaking it down
1.) You cast Shocking Grasp.
It's a 2 action spell that requires a spell attack roll, so this works fine.
2.) You make a Strike with the bow.
In order to make a Strike, you first make an attack roll. You then calculate your attack roll result by adding your ability modifier (usually Dex), your proficiency bonus for the bow, and any other applicable bonuses or penalties to your ranged weapon attack.
3.) You use the attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell.
The attack roll result has already been calculated using the bow Strike, and we are required to use that number for the spell. So I don't see how the Shocking Grasp bonus can now be applied to the spell. You have to use the same attack roll result against the same AC, and so there is only a single attack check against a single enemy. You can't hit with one effect and miss with the other, because a single attack check is determining the outcome of both.
So it seems to me that we have combined ammunition and spell into a single attack. We have one attack roll, one attack result, one attack check, and one target.
I would love to be wrong, though. Convince me.
Gisher wrote: I would love to be wrong, though. Convince me. There is no reason to assume the same number for the attack and the same ac: look at spell parry [You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to AC and to saving throws against spells that target you until the start of your next turn]. A Eldritch Shot should resolve against a different AC for the strike and the spell. Much the same with shocking grasp: when you check that particular attack, there is a different circumstance bonus that's JUST for the spell. I mean, damage is added up separately for reductions and vulnerability, they are called "attacks" so I just don't see how they aren't different attacks for sneak attack.
On your numbers, I'm with you until #3: once you go to check, you have a circumstance bonus than only applies to the shocking grasp so as long as there wasn't already one of that bonus added, it should apply. And As I've shown, you can have a different AC vs spells than one vs physical attacks so you sure can have different results.
EDIT: Also Recognize Spell [Critical Success: You correctly recognize the spell and gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your saving throw or your AC against it].
Gisher wrote: graystone wrote: Gisher wrote: There is only one attack roll. Hence you only apply Sneak Attack once. I don't agree, it's trigger isn't a roll. If I have an ability where I roll once and strike 2 different creatures do I only sneak attack one or both: to me, it's both. Linking rolls IMO doesn't alter it being treated as separate subordinate attacks. In fact you can different degrees of success for those attacks with Eldritch Shot: for instance with Shocking Grasp you gain a +1 circumstance bonus to your attack roll with shocking grasp so it's possible to hit with it only or crit with it while the strike only hits. Different attacks. I apologize for my poor wording. I should have said that there is a single attack check rather than a single attack roll. I got distracted by that pesky real life. :)
I agree that the Investigator using Swipe would get to apply Strategic Strike to both opponents, but I'm not sure that the same reasoning applies here. The Investigator makes a single attack roll, which is modified by Devise a Stratagem when calculating the attack result. That is then used in two independent attack checks against two different opponents. Strategic Strike applies to both because the Int modifier was part of the attack result that was used in both attack checks.
As I read Eldritch Shot, there is only a single attack roll, a single attack roll result, and a single attack check against a single opponent. That suggests to me that Sneak Attack would only apply once.
I'll walk through my reasoning using your Shocking Grasp example.
Quote: Eldritch Shot
You Cast a Spell that takes 1 or 2 actions to cast and requires a spell attack roll. The effects of the spell do not occur immediately but are imbued into the bow you’re wielding. Make a Strike with that bow. Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. This counts as two attacks for your multiple attack penalty, but
... It's 2 attack checks. The arrow can hit and the spell miss. At 6th lvl with am 18 dex and cha would recieve 2 attack checks with a 10 rolled and a normal bow would have a 24 attack with the bow and a 22 with the magic attack. An ac 23 target would be hit only with the arrow. 1 die roll 2 attack results.
And as i mentioned eldritch shot says figure the results separately. Separately meaning not taking the results of the other into account meaning sneak attack would apply to both if applicable.
One of the main problems everyone seems to be having is confusing attack roll and attack result. The roll is the physical number on the d20. The attack result us the roll plus modifiers.
You dont even need to do the shocking grasp example. A simple 6th lvl fighter eldritch archer. A fighter at this level you can assume an 19 dex(+4) and 16 cha(+3) wielding a +1 bow. At 6th lvl he will be a master(+12 with level) in bow and only trained in arcane(+8 with level).
Now lets do math we will assume a roll of 10
The bow shot is 10+12(proficiency)+4(dex)+1(+1bow) total result of attack 27
The spell
10+8(proficiency)+3(cha) total
Result of attack 21
Two totally different attack results. Meaning 2 totally different attacks. And yes the spell attack result is correct. No where in eldritch shot does it say to add the weapons attack. Now you can achieve expert and master in arcane but thats two more feats. A rogue with Eldritch archer would have similar proficiency if they invest in the feats as they level but i used fighter to show the contrast.
I absolutely don't see how anyone could have a problem with letting magical trickster apply. Look at the action economy. Action economy is the game. A rogue needs an action to get the target flat footed(excluding a few high level feats) this means the rogue is extremely limited in using eldritch shot. Every other round will be dedicated to positioning and establishing stealth.
As far as balance goes a rogue can easily far outdamage an eldritch shot dealing sneak on both spell and arrow. While also adding some nice debuffs.
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Gisher wrote: That is then used in two independent attack checks against two different opponents. So if, hypothetically, there was some feat that let you hit the same target twice with Swipe instead of two targets once, would you say that no longer works?
That seems to be the biggest difference between the two mechanics.
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Squiggit wrote: Gisher wrote: That is then used in two independent attack checks against two different opponents. So if, hypothetically, there was some feat that let you hit the same target twice with Swipe instead of two targets once, would you say that no longer works?
That seems to be the biggest difference between the two mechanics. Exactly sir! Lets look at twin feint. This feat would be absolutely useless if sneak attack was only applied once.
Twin feint, two weapon flurry, dual weapon blitz, twin takedown all are multiple attacks that have no mention of apply precision to only one. So, obviously with paizo not redundantly stating rules. Sneak to the attacks is the normal and double slice is the exception. Meaning, eldritch shot would fall under the normal.
Nyhme wrote: Squiggit wrote: Gisher wrote: That is then used in two independent attack checks against two different opponents. So if, hypothetically, there was some feat that let you hit the same target twice with Swipe instead of two targets once, would you say that no longer works?
That seems to be the biggest difference between the two mechanics. Exactly sir! Lets look at twin feint. This feat would be absolutely useless if sneak attack was only applied once.
Twin feint, two weapon flurry, dual weapon blitz, twin takedown all are multiple attacks that have no mention of apply precision to only one. So, obviously with paizo not redundantly stating rules. Sneak to the attacks is the normal and double slice is the exception. Meaning, eldritch shot would fall under the normal. the problem is that all those who are applying double sneak have the second attack at normal MAP penlty, while the only one that doesn't apply sneak twice is the one that doesn't apply the MAP penalty.
Since ES also doesn't apply the MAP penalty, it is a fair assumption that it follows the only other "double hit" that also doesnt apply it as well. No?
shroudb wrote:
the problem is that all those who are applying double sneak have the second attack at normal MAP penlty, while the only one that doesn't apply sneak twice is the one that doesn't apply the MAP penalty.
Since ES also doesn't apply the MAP penalty, it is a fair assumption that it follows the only other "double hit" that also doesnt apply it as well. No?
Well youre sort of wrong. The magic isnt affected by map correct, however, it is a spell attack and you only start with trained in the spellcasting school you choose and doest get the attack bonus from a magic weapon and will go off of cha unless you already had a spellcasting school. Meaning unless you came into the dedication from wizard or sorcerer youre at a huge deficit. Maxing dex and cha would give 18 and 16 to start. At 5th and 15th lvls theyll be tied in modifier 10th and 20th dex will be 1 higher. Now with the lower trained proficiency and attack bonus from magic weapon and lower ability modifier. The penalty is about the same as a second attack with an agile weapon. Sure the proficiency can be increased at later levels but thats more feat investment just to close a gap.
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Lots of good counter-arguments here. I'm now convinced that you would get to apply Sneak Attack to both the arrow strike and to the spell.
I am still having problems with the question of whether you calculate two attack roll results or just one. I'll borrow Nyhme's excellent example for this.
Nyhme wrote: ...
A simple 6th lvl fighter eldritch archer. A fighter at this level you can assume an 19 dex(+4) and 16 cha(+3) wielding a +1 bow. At 6th lvl he will be a master(+12 with level) in bow and only trained in arcane(+8 with level).
Now lets do math we will assume a roll of 10
The bow shot is 10+12(proficiency)+4(dex)+1(+1bow) total result of attack 27
The spell
10+8(proficiency)+3(cha) total
Result of attack 21
Two totally different attack results. Meaning 2 totally different attacks. And yes the spell attack result is correct. No where in eldritch shot does it say to add the weapons attack.
...
Eldritch Shot tells you to make a Strike. For this character the attack roll result would be 27. I agree with that.
But Eldritch Shot then tells us that:
Quote: Your spell flies with the ammunition, using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell. I read that as applying the 27 to both the Strike and the Spell. That would mean that the attack roll result for casting a spell (the 21) would not be used at all. Similarly, the circumstance bonus for Shocking Grasp wouldn't be applied because the attack roll result of 27 is locked in. Adding another bonus would make it a different attack roll result.
Frankly I thought being able to use the Strike attack roll result for the spell was one of the biggest advantages of Eldritch Shot.
shroudb wrote: Nyhme wrote: Squiggit wrote: Gisher wrote: That is then used in two independent attack checks against two different opponents. So if, hypothetically, there was some feat that let you hit the same target twice with Swipe instead of two targets once, would you say that no longer works?
That seems to be the biggest difference between the two mechanics. Exactly sir! Lets look at twin feint. This feat would be absolutely useless if sneak attack was only applied once.
Twin feint, two weapon flurry, dual weapon blitz, twin takedown all are multiple attacks that have no mention of apply precision to only one. So, obviously with paizo not redundantly stating rules. Sneak to the attacks is the normal and double slice is the exception. Meaning, eldritch shot would fall under the normal. the problem is that all those who are applying double sneak have the second attack at normal MAP penlty, while the only one that doesn't apply sneak twice is the one that doesn't apply the MAP penalty.
Since ES also doesn't apply the MAP penalty, it is a fair assumption that it follows the only other "double hit" that also doesnt apply it as well. No? Swipe ignores MAP and I see no reason you couldn't sneak attack each target. I'm not seeing how MAP's impacts it at all.
lets do a comparison.
10th lvl rogue thief(yes i know dex wont apply to bow damage. I want precision debilitation) stats are 18 str 20 dex 18 cha. Weapon is a +2 striking composite long bow. Against a 30 ac target.
Lets say youre next, archer, dread striker, double shot, triple shot precise debilitation feats.
Thats 2 attacks at a +19 attack each both dealing sneak attack damage.
And 2d8+4 damage plus 2d6 sneak plus 2d6 from debilitation on both attacks.
27 average damage needing an 11 to hit
Now same rogue you could do a different racket for different debuffs but precision is an extra 2d6 damage.
So we have tumble behind, mobility, magical trickster, eldritch archer, light step, precision debilitation.(you could do your next and dread striker or something else but this gives you an option for flat footed that works on anything.
Now you have an attack at +21(10% more accurate) attack and doing 2d6+4 damage plus 2d6 sneak and inflicting flat footed debilitation(this is one of the only ways to maintain flat footed with a 3 action attack) and spell attack at +16(25% less accurate) doing 5d6 +3 damage and 2d6 sneak.
18 damage on bow average hitting on a 9
27 damage average hitting on a 14
The advantage is clearly on the archer over eldritch archer and it only gets worse at higher levels. Not having to take spellcasting feats frees up to take alchemist dedication with expert and master so you can have the +3 ranged attack quicksilver mutagen going constantly. By 18th lvl you get multishot stance making triple shot super accurate.
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I agree that since Eldritch Shot tells you to use the result of the attack roll for both checks, you don't get any spell-specific attack bonuses, since that's not part of the result of the attack check.
But graystone is right in that the DCs can be different, so you can still end up in a situation where the attack hits/crits and the spell misses/hits or vice versa, depending on what kind of buffs the target has on them.
Squiggit wrote: I agree that since Eldritch Shot tells you to use the result of the attack roll for both checks, you don't get any spell-specific attack bonuses, since that's not part of the result of the attack check. That is the way that I read the feat. This is a really complicated mixture of rules elements, though, so I could be wrong.
Squiggit wrote: But graystone is right in that the DCs can be different, so you can still end up in a situation where the attack hits/crits and the spell misses/hits or vice versa, depending on what kind of buffs the target has on them. I have come around to that way of thinking. Walking through my thought process, and then having all of you point out the counter-cases was really useful.
I think Nyhme is correct that keeping track of the exact definitions of the terminology is the tricky part. I remember having the same issues when I learned PF1.
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For starters, when did you guys started thinking that the Spell attack check is different than the Strike check?
Let's see here:
ES:
Quote:
using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell.
What does "attack roll" result means:
Quote: When success isn’t certain—whether you’re swinging a sword at a foul beast, attempting to leap across a chasm, or straining to remember the name of the earl’s second cousin at a soiree—you’ll attempt a check. Pathfinder has many types of checks, from skill checks to attack rolls to saving throws, but they all follow these basic steps.
1. Roll a d20 and identify the modifiers, bonuses, and penalties that apply.
2. Calculate the result.
3. Compare the result to the difficulty class (DC).
4. Determine the degree of success and the effect.
The "attack roll" includes every single bonus that apply to the Strike. It's not only what you rolled on the d20.
Then you use this exact number, including every single bonus and martial proficiency, and you use it to determine both the effects of the Strike and the Effects of the Spell.
You could have +20 attack, and +1 spell atack, and on a roll of 10, the result would be using a total of 30 vs the AC for both the Strike and the Spell.
Nyhme wrote: One of the main problems everyone seems to be having is confusing attack roll and attack result. The roll is the physical number on the d20. The attack result us the roll plus modifiers.
that's flat out wrong as i pointed above.
The attack roll is the result of the d20+every modifier.
what you confused is that, unlike a skill where it is called "skill check" there isn't an "attack check" similarly to how there isn't a "Will check"
Attack roll = check using your attack modifier.
Saving throw = check using your will/fort/ref modifiers
Skill check = check using your skill modifier.
The only "check" that is a simple d20 is a "flat check".
Now another fun debate. Double slice, If both hit you choose which attack gets precision. Not a big deal on a double miss, hit miss or double hit... now a crit and a hit. Since both have hit now you choose which gets precision. Since the choice is activated after both hits are established. Do you get to choose on the crit so you can double it? And go...
Nyhme wrote: Now another fun debate. Double slice, If both hit you choose which attack gets precision. Not a big deal on a double miss, hit miss or double hit... now a crit and a hit. Since both have hit now you choose which gets precision. Since the choice is activated after both hits are established. Do you get to choose on the crit so you can double it? And go... sure, you get to choose which hit gets the precision. So you can choose the critical one.
But that one is distinctively different since it's two different checks as opposed to two identical ones like in Eldritch shot.
Thanks for that breakdown, shroudb. It looks like I should rethink my terminology.
@shroudb: I realize this is old-ish, but curious if this leads you to the conclusion that sneak attack works for both the spell and the attack for Eldritch Shot or not?
Requirements of magical trickster: "When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage".
Eldritch shot: "using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell."
I'm unsure here, as you're using your attack roll result to determine the effects, rather than using the attack roll result as your attack roll for both the spell attack and the weapon attack, though maybe they're logical equivalents?
tivadar27 wrote: @shroudb: I realize this is old-ish, but curious if this leads you to the conclusion that sneak attack works for both the spell and the attack for Eldritch Shot or not?
Requirements of magical trickster: "When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage".
Eldritch shot: "using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell."
I'm unsure here, as you're using your attack roll result to determine the effects, rather than using the attack roll result as your attack roll for both the spell attack and the weapon attack, though maybe they're logical equivalents?
I still stick with my original analysis. Getting sneak attack dice twice on the same attack roll is very strong, and considering that most other double attack feats only apply precision once, the argument that Eldritch Shot should be different is even weaker.
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Kelseus wrote: tivadar27 wrote: @shroudb: I realize this is old-ish, but curious if this leads you to the conclusion that sneak attack works for both the spell and the attack for Eldritch Shot or not?
Requirements of magical trickster: "When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage".
Eldritch shot: "using your attack roll result to determine the effects of both the Strike and the spell."
I'm unsure here, as you're using your attack roll result to determine the effects, rather than using the attack roll result as your attack roll for both the spell attack and the weapon attack, though maybe they're logical equivalents?
I still stick with my original analysis. Getting sneak attack dice twice on the same attack roll is very strong, and considering that most other double attack feats only apply precision once, the argument that Eldritch Shot should be different is even weaker. Can you back up the second statement here... Every double attack feat outside of Double slice that I know of can apply sneak attack multiple times. Double slice says it doesn't do it explicitly. Swipe and Quick Reversal, for example, would both apply sneak attack to both targets.
The question here is what the rules state, not whether or not it's strong, unless it's overpowered. What "analysis" are you providing that this falls into that realm? A rogue could, for two actions, attack twice and assuming they hit on both, do as much damage as an eldritch shot for 3 actions. The obvious advantage is not having MAP, but that's also balanced against the fact that this is using 3 actions. You mention having a ranger that does this, but we're looking at Rogue here, and I'm curious how this compares when looking at an actual build... I haven't run those numbers, I don't know if anyone has...
Quick analysis: 20th level rogue who needs a 10 to hit on their first attack against a flat-footed opponent:
4d6 striking runes +
4d6 sneak attack +
3d6 damage runes +
7 dexterity to damage +
6 greater weapon specialization
---------------------
49.5 Average damage
(0.55 + 0.35 + 0.15) * 49.5 regular damage
(3 * 0.05) * 49.5 added critical damage
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59.4 average damage over 3 attacks
Eldritch Archer:
4d6 striking runes
4d6 sneak attack weapon
4d6 sneak attack spell
3d6 damage runes
1 strength to damage (assuming strength of 14)
5 charisma to damage (assuming charisma of 20)
6 greater weapon specialization
10d6 spell damage
---------------------
99.5 average damage for 1 eldritch shot
(0.55) * 99.5 regular damage
(0.05) * 99.5 added crit damage
------------------------------
59.75 average damage on an eldritch shot.
So yeah... these are pretty much identical. There's no huge advantage over a melee rogue. Sure, you might do better than an archery rogue, but you're sinking a dedication into this, and you could have also sunk a dedication into actually going archer for potentially similar/better results.
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