Does Mistform concealment work with Very Sneaky

[Jimbonee]

This is a question my GM and I have been discussing.

Very Sneaky: "Taller folk rarely pay attention to the shadows at their feet, and you take full advantage of this. You can move 5 feet farther when you take the Sneak action, up to your Speed.

In addition, as long as you continue to use Sneak actions and succeed at your Stealth check, you don't become observer if you don't have cover or greater cover and aren't concealed at the end of the Sneak action, as long as you have cover or greater cover or are concealed at the end of your turn."

Mistform: "A faint mist emanates from your skin, making you concealed for the listed duration. As usual being concealed when your position is still obvious, you can't use this concealment to Hide or Sneak."

A lot of people read the last sentence of Mistform as: "You can't use this concealment to Hide or Sneak." They don't seem to notice the linchpin line: "when your position is still obvious."

When you are passing Stealth checks you remain Hidden or Undetected = your position is NOT obvious. Therefore, using Very Sneaky you should be able to "continue to use Sneak actions" and even remain unobserved at the end of your turn using concealed, which Mistform gives you.

Is my logic correct here, or am I missing something?

[Taja the Barbarian]

Nope, Sneaking normally requires you to have cover/concealment at the end of your Sneak action.

Sneak <Single Action> wrote:

Move, Secret

Source Core Rulebook pg. 252 1.1
...
At the end of your movement, the GM rolls your Stealth check in secret and compares the result to the Perception DC of each creature you were hidden from or undetected by at the start of your movement. If you have cover or greater cover from the creature throughout your Stride, you gain the +2 circumstance bonus from cover (or +4 from greater cover) to your Stealth check. Because you’re moving, the bonus increase from Taking Cover doesn’t apply. You don’t get to roll against a creature if, at the end of your movement, you neither are concealed from it nor have cover or greater cover against it. You automatically become observed by such a creature.
...

Very Sneaky merely moves this requirement to the end of your turn rather than the end of each Sneak action.

Since Mistform clearly states "you can't use this concealment to Hide or Sneak", you'll become observed at the end of your turn if you have no other cover/concealment.

[Jimbonee]

Mistform with Very Sneaky is different then Mistform alone in the middle of a room.

Mistform in the middle of the room = already perceived, therefore concealed but your position is obvious.

Mistform with Very Sneaky = not already perceived, therefore concealed, and you position is not obvious.

I'm just trying to think through this, because Mistform could have easily just said, "You can't use Mistform to Hide or Sneak." but it didn't, it explained that it can't be used to Hide or Sneak because your position is obvious. It would seem, if your position is not obvious, then the type of concealment offered would be the same as described in Very Sneaky.

Example: Troll is looking at the rest of the party while a 3 ft goblin using Very Sneaky and Mistform sneaks around him undetected. When using peripheral vision or glancing around quickly the Troll still does not perceive the goblin because he is concealed misty blur (and is continuing to pass stealth checks every action).

[mrspaghetti]

I agree with Taja

[shroudb]

Very sneaky just changes the end of action to end of round.

So you can spend 3 actions, as an example, sneaking across a 60ft open plain, as long as you start and end without being obvious.

While, without very sneaky you would need to find spots to gain cover/concealment after each individual sneak action.

Mistform specifically says that your position is still obvious.

[Kennethray]

I agree with mrspaghetti.

[Mellored]

I agree with Kennethray

[Captain Zoom]

I agree with Mellored

[graystone]

I agree with the magic 8 ball!
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What was the question? ;)

PS: yeah, no go on the combo.