I am a little confused about the Deny Succor hex, available from the shaman's Life spirit:
Deny Succor (Su): The shaman can place this hex on a single creature within 30 feet. The target does not heal damage from cure spells and does not benefit from any spells or effects that remove conditions. This effect lasts for a number of rounds equal to 1/2 the shaman’s level. A successful Will saving throw negates this effect. Whether or not the saving throw is successful, the creature cannot be the target of this hex again for 24 hours.
The shaman and oracle guides always rate it as red (i.e. very bad) and I couldn't find any discussion about it here. Maybe I misunderstood it, which is why I am asking here now, my focus being this part of the hex:
The target ... does not benefit from any spells or effects that remove conditions.
If I understand this correctly, then this hex negates every spell, potion, ability, ... that removes any condition, right? So no Heal or Restoration spells?
And the way it is written means that the entire effect of such a spell/effect is negated for the target, not just the condition removal part of the spell, so Heal would not restore any hit points either, right?
This means no Lay on Hands from paladins? No Focusing Attack for rogues? Does it prevent Dispel Magic from removing Incorporeal Chains (Grappled condition) on the target? No re-roll abilities or second chance effects to remove conditions? Does it suppress the effects of a paladin's Aura of Courage on the target (as it would remove the Fear condition)? Would it prevent a Wish from resurrecting the target (as it removes the Dead condition)?
True, it lasts only for 1/2 the shaman's level in rounds, but during that time it basically prevents any condition being removed from the target by any means (unless the condition's duration expires), right?
That time it matters in a fight when your enemy is severely debuffed, you get the deny succor hex on them right after (&they fail the save) and the enemies had an action-economy friendly means of removing the debuff, it'll be great...but that time may not ever come up in the average campaign.
Against PCs it's slightly more useful, but guides are generally written from the perspective of the PCs not of the GM.
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To reply to the OP questions:
- It doesn't stop effects that aren't Cure spells that heal hit points unless they also remove conditions. From what I get it doesn't matter if the target of the effects has any condition on it.
- It doesn't stop dispel magic from working, dispel magic doesn't target the condition, it targets the spell.
- Similarly, it is possible to remove conditions casting the opposite spell. If the target is Slowed and he then is hasted, the two effects cancel each other.
There is an interesting corollary: the spell "protect" from the removal of every condition, regardless of it being a positive or negative condition. "Benefit" isn't a rule term, as the same thing can be a benefit in a situation and a malefit in another.
To make an example: Invisible is a condition, Invisibility purge is an effect that removes that condition. Deny Succor will protect your Invisible condition from the effects of Invisibility purge.
If anything it'll just slowdown a blitz through a dungeon with their minutes/lvl buffs when the party is forced to wait a few rounds after combat to start removing negative conditions or heal after they rofl-stomp the shamman that could have been actually hurting the party but instead decided to become a living speedbump. The only other use is you really want to kill a single PC that is low health and could be healed with a powerful spell like Heal so you single them out with an ability that prevents them from being brought from the brink, then single them out again with someone else landing the killing blow. It is really worthless or just *extra* mean.
- It doesn't stop dispel magic from working, dispel magic doesn't target the condition, it targets the spell.
Is that so? It doesn't say anywhere that the effect has to target the condition, so I thought it might even negate abilities like Uncanny Dodge (removes flat-footed), Aura of Courage (removes fear conditions), prevent a Contingency or Clone (when it removes dying/dead), or abilities used against grappled, prone & the like.
Thank you for your answers everyone, so the hex really is super useless. =/
Things that are red for an adventurer, can be bright blue for an npc.
Stopping a monster from healing while the other 3-4 members of your party blitz it dead in a round and a half is less useful/scary than the hag turning off healing on your most wounded party member halfway through an ugly fight.
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Things that are red for an adventurer, can be bright blue for an npc.
Stopping a monster from healing while the other 3-4 members of your party blitz it dead in a round and a half is less useful/scary than the hag turning off healing on your most wounded party member halfway through an ugly fight.
But then some player will think that is "*extra* mean", as someone already said in this thread.
Personally, I can think of several fights where that hex, if used successfully, would have killed or forced to flee one of the PCs.
Things that are red for an adventurer, can be bright blue for an npc.
Stopping a monster from healing while the other 3-4 members of your party blitz it dead in a round and a half is less useful/scary than the hag turning off healing on your most wounded party member halfway through an ugly fight.
But then some player will think that is "*extra* mean", as someone already said in this thread.
Personally, I can think of several fights where that hex, if used successfully, would have killed or forced to flee one of the PCs.
Thats a good thing though. Occasionally throwing the fear of mortality at your party is good, and sometimes that comes with pc death or retreat and thats also good. heros suffer setbacks.
will it also stop freedom of movement ?
-in case you grapple and don't want the other guy's friends to help with a spell\use item\ability that grant it.
cause grapple builds (except a specific monk..) are almost hopeless against that spell.
will it also stop freedom of movement ?
-in case you grapple and don't want the other guy's friends to help with a spell\use item\ability that grant it.
cause grapple builds (except a specific monk..) are almost hopeless against that spell.
doesn't look like the spell directly removes the conditions. It even specifies you're still under the influence of the impairment you just get to move and attack normally.
Same with the grappling, it doesn't remove the condition, you just autowin checks to escape and enemies autofail attempts to initiate.
Things that are red for an adventurer, can be bright blue for an npc.
Stopping a monster from healing while the other 3-4 members of your party blitz it dead in a round and a half is less useful/scary than the hag turning off healing on your most wounded party member halfway through an ugly fight.
But then some player will think that is "*extra* mean", as someone already said in this thread.
Personally, I can think of several fights where that hex, if used successfully, would have killed or forced to flee one of the PCs.
I recognize that some might look at it that way, but it's pretty short sighted to do so, because:
1. The implication is that it's unfair for opponents to use things that the PCs themselves wouldn't find useful. In this case specifically, they wouldn't take the hex because they know it's more efficient to just blow the enemy up quickly rather than tactically debuff it. They want the enemy to use the same tactics they do, but worse, so they can still win.
2. The opponent could just use an ACTUAL save-or-die effect, and that's always going to be more dangerous than denying someone in-combat healing (which is the only relevant use for a round-per-level debuff). It could be the nail in the coffin that causes a PC to die, but there are many more common effects that would cause that death more quickly/directly with a failed save.
Whenever someone complains about something being OP/mean/unreasonable using RAI, I have to question their motivations or understanding.
Things that are red for an adventurer, can be bright blue for an npc.
Stopping a monster from healing while the other 3-4 members of your party blitz it dead in a round and a half is less useful/scary than the hag turning off healing on your most wounded party member halfway through an ugly fight.
But then some player will think that is "*extra* mean", as someone already said in this thread.
Personally, I can think of several fights where that hex, if used successfully, would have killed or forced to flee one of the PCs.I recognize that some might look at it that way, but it's pretty short sighted to do so, because:
1. The implication is that it's unfair for opponents to use things that the PCs themselves wouldn't find useful. In this case specifically, they wouldn't take the hex because they know it's more efficient to just blow the enemy up quickly rather than tactically debuff it. They want the enemy to use the same tactics they do, but worse, so they can still win.
2. The opponent could just use an ACTUAL save-or-die effect, and that's always going to be more dangerous than denying someone in-combat healing (which is the only relevant use for a round-per-level debuff). It could be the nail in the coffin that causes a PC to die, but there are many more common effects that would cause that death more quickly/directly with a failed save.
Whenever someone complains about something being OP/mean/unreasonable using RAI, I have to question their motivations or understanding.
1. In reality, it should be in the NPCs best interest to blow the PCs up immediately instead of making the character sit and watch for an extra half of a turn before something else comes to finish them off instead of watching the cleric try to heal the PC and "it doesn't work." Why didn't the shaman prepare a thorny entanglement so they can't move to heal eachother and everyone takes damage instead of singling out one PC.
2. At least then you can complain about bad game design. If the ability denied the ability to heal for minutes or hours, casting it on the PCs, letting the minions die to deal some damage and then falling back in a dungeon at least makes some strategic sense and actually can make the game interesting. But casting deny succor with mere rounds per level takes away an already terrible combat strategy and is the strategic equivalent of standing in front of a bullet-train to hope that you slow it down by a couple of seconds to it's destination.
It's not mean because it's OP, it's mean because you're already killing a player but you're drawing it out for no reason.
1. In reality, it should be in the NPCs best interest to blow the PCs up immediately instead of making the character sit and watch for an extra half of a turn before something else comes to finish them off instead of watching the cleric try to heal the PC and "it doesn't work." Why didn't the shaman prepare a thorny entanglement so they can't move to heal eachother and everyone takes damage instead of singling out one PC.
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NPC's don't have the resources pcs do to "blow people up immediately" Deny succor also prevents the paladin removing that blindness spell you threw on their caster so your minions could deal with the other party members.
NPC's don't have the resources pcs do to "blow people up immediately" Deny succor also prevents the paladin removing that blindness spell you threw on their caster so your minions could deal with the other party members.1. In reality, it should be in the NPCs best interest to blow the PCs up immediately instead of making the character sit and watch for an extra half of a turn before something else comes to finish them off instead of watching the cleric try to heal the PC and "it doesn't work." Why didn't the shaman prepare a thorny entanglement so they can't move to heal eachother and everyone takes damage instead of singling out one PC.
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Missing the point but oh well.
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Missing the point but oh well.NPC's don't have the resources pcs do to "blow people up immediately" Deny succor also prevents the paladin removing that blindness spell you threw on their caster so your minions could deal with the other party members.1. In reality, it should be in the NPCs best interest to blow the PCs up immediately instead of making the character sit and watch for an extra half of a turn before something else comes to finish them off instead of watching the cleric try to heal the PC and "it doesn't work." Why didn't the shaman prepare a thorny entanglement so they can't move to heal eachother and everyone takes damage instead of singling out one PC.
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I get (or at least I think I do) what is your point, but I disagree with it.
Depending on the scenario, the NPCs can be a BEEG with few strong minions, and then the hex is mostly useless as, probably, the minions can do more useful things or an encounter where the BEEG has a veritable horde of low-level minions that can do very little beside piling bodies to slow the PCs advance. In the second situation, one minion spamming the hex to keep the negative conditions last a few more rounds is probably more useful to the BEEG than a minion that will, at best, absorb a single sword stroke for one of the PCs.Sure, the PCs will probably fail the save only if they roll badly, but the minion can still be used to absorb a single sword stroke and spam hexes before his demise.
The main problem is that Pathfinder (and all the 3.x derived games) work badly with hordes of minions managed by a single GM.
Maybe but how often do you see full casters as fodder minions? Maybe as minor subboss to a dungeon, but not just someone you're supposed to bulldoze through anywhere above a EL 5 encounter. The one place I have seen a full caster used as fodder minions is in the final part of Crimson Throne, where they throw a bunch of level 4 clerics of Urgathoa at you like they are going out of style, except if you let them get their buffs off, they are actually scary encounters for a level 6 party (something like +12 to attack and 2d4+10 dmg with the scythes), especially considering you can encounter 12 of them at once if you trigger the alarm. If you give those clerics the ability to also stop one person needing to heal mid fight, that means that for the ability to be useful, someone still needs to be healed bad enough that midcombat healing has to happen, which means the character is likely already dead and is just matter of who gets the kill because they have those "weak minions" who have already seriously hurt the party are in melee range, which means that using the ability to prevent the healing is just one creature gloating over/assisting/confirming the PK depending on how you look at it.
It is basically the same case with removing negative conditions, either the condition isn't that bad to matter, or trying to remove a sicken really is a last ditch attempt to kill something before it kills something else (in which case literally anything else could probably push that character over the edge faster). If it's a more serious condition like paralysis, why didn't they paralyze the guy who could probably remove paralysis first (ie the cleric or wizard, not the fighter)?
Like every AP ive ever seen has NPC's with a morale condition at which point they flee and try to regroup with other people later in the dungeon. Your NPC's never do that?
Maybe I'm just too used to the antagonists we face basically being an evil adventuring party.
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Maybe but how often do you see full casters as fodder minions? Maybe as minor subboss to a dungeon, but not just someone you're supposed to bulldoze through anywhere above a EL 5 encounter. The one place I have seen a full caster used as fodder minions is in the final part of Crimson Throne, where they throw a bunch of level 4 clerics of Urgathoa at you like they are going out of style, except if you let them get their buffs off, they are actually scary encounters for a level 6 party (something like +12 to attack and 2d4+10 dmg with the scythes), especially considering you can encounter 12 of them at once if you trigger the alarm. If you give those clerics the ability to also stop one person needing to heal mid fight, that means that for the ability to be useful, someone still needs to be healed bad enough that midcombat healing has to happen, which means the character is likely already dead and is just matter of who gets the kill because they have those "weak minions" who have already seriously hurt the party are in melee range, which means that using the ability to prevent the healing is just one creature gloating over/assisting/confirming the PK depending on how you look at it.
It is basically the same case with removing negative conditions, either the condition isn't that bad to matter, or trying to remove a sicken really is a last ditch attempt to kill something before it kills something else (in which case literally anything else could probably push that character over the edge faster). If it's a more serious condition like paralysis, why didn't they paralyze the guy who could probably remove paralysis first (ie the cleric or wizard, not the fighter)?
As an example, several parts of Raise of the Runelords.
In the Pinnacle of Avarice you are in a constant running battle with all the denizens, both melee combatants and spellcaster. In one of the rooms, there are 4 lamias that are level 8 clerics. +22 to hit with the first attack means that they will hit with a 20 against the close combat members of the party.
Against level 16 PCs the spells aren't much better one each of poison (DC 21), unholy blight (DC 21), blindness/deafness (DC 20).
Deny succor is perfectly in line with that if you change them to shamans and at least will stop the ability to remove conditions and use Heal for a few rounds.
Vampires are another example of a monster that often is a low-level full caster.
You shouldn't consider only how it works for human and demy human characters.
Like every AP ive ever seen has NPC's with a morale condition at which point they flee and try to regroup with other people later in the dungeon. Your NPC's never do that?
Maybe I'm just too used to the antagonists we face basically being an evil adventuring party.
You can try to run away, but by the time a melee character gets in your face, you're probably not going to make it. Also the windows are really small even at late level compared to typical damage output of a party within a round. Sure you could change it to be earlier, but then you just have the enemies routing into a huge battle in the final room as soon as a couple of them take damage. (Also, all the enemies in that particular dungeon literally have a "stand and die" morale line except the guy who has dimension door.
(Also, PCs usually do the same thing and stick it out the end, so... *shrug*)
A specific example:
In the Pinnacle of Avarice you are in a constant running battle with all the denizens, both melee combatants and spellcaster. In one of the rooms, there are 4 lamias that are level 8 clerics. +22 to hit with the first attack means that they will hit with a 20 against the close combat members of the party.
Against level 16 PCs the spells aren't much better one each of poison (DC 21), unholy blight (DC 21), blindness/deafness (DC 20).
Deny succor is perfectly in line with that if you change them to shamans and at least will stop the ability to remove conditions and use Heal for a few rounds.
Vampires are another example of a monster that often is a low-level full caster.You shouldn't consider only how it works for human and demy human characters.
This is still an ability that works if and only if the other spells have worked and requires an entire extra turn to get off. Not to mention the save is the same DC as those two 4th level spells.
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This is still an ability that works if and only if the other spells have worked and requires an entire extra turn to get off. Not to mention the save is the same DC as those two 4th level spells.
Stopping Heal for a time is useful. In that battle, there are enough bruisers that denying in combat healing can do something.
Stopping Heal for a time is useful. In that battle, there are enough bruisers that denying in combat healing can do something.
This is still an ability that works if and only if the other spells have worked and requires an entire extra turn to get off. Not to mention the save is the same DC as those two 4th level spells.
Denying blindness removal is another.
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Denying blindness removal is another.Stopping Heal for a time is useful. In that battle, there are enough bruisers that denying in combat healing can do something.
This is still an ability that works if and only if the other spells have worked and requires an entire extra turn to get off. Not to mention the save is the same DC as those two 4th level spells.
The same subject failing both save is improbable, but would be very useful.