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I can also easily imagine a "witch hunt" of some radical religion searching for evil/good/chaotic agents without fear from anything and beleving that what's done is right.
Remember in our real history we had witch hunt from church torturing and firing people for any suspicion.
I can very easily imagine a game working like this even for players.
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And also related to this part of the idea is that everyone has to take the caster's word that they are Good and doing Good damage, and thus the people harmed are Evil, when the reality is that an Evil caster could be lying about the details.I can also easily imagine a "witch hunt" of some radical religion searching for evil/good/chaotic agents without fear from anything and beleving that what's done is right.
Remember in our real history we had witch hunt from church torturing and firing people for any suspicion.
I can very easily imagine a game working like this even for players.
Or the quite possible Chaotic follower of a Trickster Deity going around zapping people and pretending that Loyal People are actually evil (and if they are Chaotic Neutral, they will be immune to a Good Lance)
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As much as I hate to add this to the discussion...Evil divine casters would likely have no problem at all casting Evil Divine Lances at everyone walking in the castle/cathedral gates to weed out the good townsfolk...And an evil nation or government (*cough*Cheliax) could easily be seen to have laws permitting their agents to fire divine lances into a crowd to find the troublemakers responsible for some heinous act or other.
Not legalese enough for Hell though. Hitting everyone and hoping for the best is clearly more of a Chaotic thing.
Not to mention that Evil is quite delighted at hurting Evil too, especially Evil rivals.
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There’s at least Daze for a semi-consistent, if low-damage, way to attack. Secrets of Magic will also introduce at least one cantrip for the tradition, a sonic mini-AoE.
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Complete aside to the radar system of shotgunning Divine Lances, I think it's a sad design choice that godless Sorcerers/maybe Oracles can't use their own alignment to determine what damage type Divine Lance deals. Like, it's MY magic, not some rando deity, let MY alignment determine how it hurts people. And Witches, it should be up to the patron (which is GM territory as to what alignment the patron actually is) to determine what damage type the Witch's Divine Lance deals, but that's not exactly explicit in the Witch entry last I read.
Ha Ha Ha. I mean I get why you ask but isn't that the concept of Divine magic? Its coming from someone else. Try one of the other traditions if you want it to be yours alone.
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Complete aside to the radar system of shotgunning Divine Lances, I think it's a sad design choice that godless Sorcerers/maybe Oracles can't use their own alignment to determine what damage type Divine Lance deals. Like, it's MY magic, not some rando deity, let MY alignment determine how it hurts people. And Witches, it should be up to the patron (which is GM territory as to what alignment the patron actually is) to determine what damage type the Witch's Divine Lance deals, but that's not exactly explicit in the Witch entry last I read.
On the sorcerer, I slightly disagree. You're right that it's nonsense for sorcerer spells to use the alignment of a deity you worship. But they should use an alignment associated with your bloodline, not your actual alignment, to make the narrative and mechanics fit together best.
Ha Ha Ha. I mean I get why you ask but isn't that the concept of Divine magic? Its coming from someone else. Try one of the other traditions if you want it to be yours alone.
Someone else? Yes. The deity you worship? No, that's only the concept for 1/4 of the divine caster classes.
Complete aside to the radar system of shotgunning Divine Lances, I think it's a sad design choice that godless Sorcerers/maybe Oracles can't use their own alignment to determine what damage type Divine Lance deals. Like, it's MY magic, not some rando deity, let MY alignment determine how it hurts people. And Witches, it should be up to the patron (which is GM territory as to what alignment the patron actually is) to determine what damage type the Witch's Divine Lance deals, but that's not exactly explicit in the Witch entry last I read.On the sorcerer, I slightly disagree. You're right that it's nonsense for sorcerer spells to use the alignment of a deity you worship. But they should use an alignment associated with your bloodline, not your actual alignment, to make the narrative and mechanics fit together best.
I agree that makes the most sense, though it does make Divine Lance useless in many adventures.
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Ha Ha Ha. I mean I get why you ask but isn't that the concept of Divine magic? Its coming from someone else. Try one of the other traditions if you want it to be yours alone.
Depends on if you're a divinity, doesn't it?
I have this image of a Oracle out there screaming "I am like a tiny god!"
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Complete aside to the radar system of shotgunning Divine Lances, I think it's a sad design choice that godless Sorcerers/maybe Oracles can't use their own alignment to determine what damage type Divine Lance deals. Like, it's MY magic, not some rando deity, let MY alignment determine how it hurts people. And Witches, it should be up to the patron (which is GM territory as to what alignment the patron actually is) to determine what damage type the Witch's Divine Lance deals, but that's not exactly explicit in the Witch entry last I read.
Is what I sad before in this topic. It's just like this cantrip was done only thinking for Clerics. For other casters the GM have to house-rule. And this create a myriad of homemade solutions. Some tables don't allow the divine sorcerers to use the cantrip at all, others allow the character use their own alignment, other use their bloodlines to limit their alignments (but this restrict the use to only to good for angelic alignment), others allow only for chars that choose a deity (but creates a question about anathemas).
IMO I still think that this cantrip is poorly made for anyone that is not a cleric. And I expect that new books can give us some alternative.Ha Ha Ha. I mean I get why you ask but isn't that the concept of Divine magic? Its coming from someone else. Try one of the other traditions if you want it to be yours alone.
This is only valid for clerics, for other classes this works way different.
On the sorcerer, I slightly disagree. You're right that it's nonsense for sorcerer spells to use the alignment of a deity you worship. But they should use an alignment associated with your bloodline, not your actual alignment, to make the narrative and mechanics fit together best.
I agree but this currently limit the divine lance to good alignment for Angelic Bloodline. Using this if a player what to use a chaotic or lawful he/her has to ask the GM if is allowed to choose if the bloodline descends from azatas or archons or if it will be restricted to angels only.
For oracles the think becomes even more confused. They are not associated to a deity or a bloodline, there's no alignment locks for mysteries so how the divine lance will work for them? Restrict to char alignment make goes against the concept that the power is not from them. Allow only to a chosen deity only makes sense if this deity have some relationship with the mystery domains but the oracle powers isn't restricted to a deity so this also basically allows the player to choose whatever alignment he wants especially if we consider all the deities that comes with Gods & Magic.
The witches have a different situation. As many witches don't even know exactly who is their patrons. The alignment can be used as an interesting tip. But for gameplay mechanic purposes I think they choose a deity to give then what alignment they can use in divine lance just like the clerics.
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Divine Lance is frequently useless at the best of times.I agree that makes the most sense, though it does make Divine Lance useless in many adventures.Complete aside to the radar system of shotgunning Divine Lances, I think it's a sad design choice that godless Sorcerers/maybe Oracles can't use their own alignment to determine what damage type Divine Lance deals. Like, it's MY magic, not some rando deity, let MY alignment determine how it hurts people. And Witches, it should be up to the patron (which is GM territory as to what alignment the patron actually is) to determine what damage type the Witch's Divine Lance deals, but that's not exactly explicit in the Witch entry last I read.On the sorcerer, I slightly disagree. You're right that it's nonsense for sorcerer spells to use the alignment of a deity you worship. But they should use an alignment associated with your bloodline, not your actual alignment, to make the narrative and mechanics fit together best.
Frequently useless and always useless is extremely important difference. There are going to be next to no campaigns where you need to deal lethal damage to good creatures, especially if you're playing a good character. The cantrips not working on neutral creatures is Ok as long as you sometimes fight evil ones, especially since those evil creatures will often have good weakness.
Daze is frequently useless as many enemies are mindless, but it is still worth considering because odds are it will work on something and even be the best option some of the time. But dealing evil damage when you'll never fight food enemies is a waste, especially if you are getting the cantrip from a bloodline and can't replace it.
Two alignment divine lance is more useful than appears for divine casters without weapons and access to other cantrips.
As Captain Morgan said. Most campaigns is against evil, isn't hard to test if your divine lance works against a foe. Just choose good and throw it if don't work and your deity is lawful or chaotic throw another alignment lance to see if harms it. Depending of situation if your good divine lance don't work you can try to stop the battle and start a negotiation with your opponent is not a hungry animal/beast.
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Ha Ha Ha. I mean I get why you ask but isn't that the concept of Divine magic? Its coming from someone else. Try one of the other traditions if you want it to be yours alone.
Divine in pathfinder 2e does not mean it comes from somewhere else, it is used to describe the type of magic that us primarily comes from the essences of life and spirit. Just like how an Angel has innate divine magic from its essence as an angel, so do angel blooded sorcerers. Sorcerers *especially* are defined by the magic that comes from themselves, their magic is *theirs.* Primal sorcerers don't have to revere or protect nature, Divine Sorcerers don't get their powers by praying or being connected to a god, and arcane sorcerers don't have to go to school.
Be it from birth due to being descendants of a strange being, or through some freak accident granting them magic sorcerers are *Magic* themselves.
Ha Ha Ha. I mean I get why you ask but isn't that the concept of Divine magic? Its coming from someone else. Try one of the other traditions if you want it to be yours alone.Divine in pathfinder 2e does not mean it comes from somewhere else, it is used to describe the type of magic that us primarily comes from the essences of life and spirit. Just like how an Angel has innate divine magic from its essence as an angel, so do angel blooded sorcerers. Sorcerers *especially* are defined by the magic that comes from themselves, their magic is *theirs.* Primal sorcerers don't have to revere or protect nature, Divine Sorcerers don't get their powers by praying or being connected to a god, and arcane sorcerers don't have to go to school.
Be it from birth due to being descendants of a strange being, or through some freak accident granting them magic sorcerers are *Magic* themselves.
I still see that as a connection through to a divine origin. Even if that connection is inherited. The pool of essense you draw from is divine, and it has characteristics.
Still your way of looking at it is reasonable and will give reasonable answers when applied.
Divine magic is the intersection of the instinctual and faith-based vital essence that rules over life and death, and the otherworldly spiritual essence that forms the building blocks of all souls.
Sounds profound, but not especially clear.
Divine The power of the divine is steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane. Clerics are the most iconic divine spellcasters, beseeching the gods to grant them their magic. Divine sorcerers can use the blood of their celestial or fiendish ancestors as a divine conduit, and champions call upon their gods to grant them martial prowess through divine guidance.
Seems more external than personal.
Divine The power of the divine is steeped in faith, the unseen, and belief in a power source from beyond the Material Plane. Clerics are the most iconic divine spellcasters, beseeching the gods to grant them their magic. Divine sorcerers can use the blood of their celestial or fiendish ancestors as a divine conduit, and champions call upon their gods to grant them martial prowess through divine guidance.Seems more external than personal.
External, sure. But why does that external source come from the choice of Deity that a character chooses to show up to weekly services for, rather than the actual source of the power granting them the spellcasting?
For a Cleric that is the same.
For other Divine casting classes, it is often not.