I'm was away from the forums for a while and I haven't been able to find if this has been brought up before but I'm wondering if it's been noticed that Druids using their own attack bonus while using Wild Shape don't gain the extra +1 to hit from the inspire courage status bonus or would only gain a net +1 status bonus from level 9 heroism and no bonus at all from the lower levels of it (Truthfully bless and heroism doesn't bother me as much).
I have a few issues with this.
1)I find it unfair to druids. They're already behind master proficiency classes due to their max stat being stuck at wisdom. This puts them even further behind if there is a bard in the group and hurts class synergy.
2)I find it weird that a druid using the attack bonus given in the spell would gain the benefit of these other status bonuses but not when using their own attack bonus.
3)There have been those in the magus chats who have advocated for a similar bonus to the magus in place of a master weapon proficiency and I would like to point out the issues with going that route.
That wild shaped druids gain a +2 status bonus for free is really nice and maybe I want to have my cake and eat it too. Wild Druids are, after all, still full spell casters. It's just losing out on the potential +1 attack bonus from inspire courage seems painful to a class that is already not as good as other classes at doing what it's trying to do.
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Ancestor Oracles are the same way with their Strike buff being a status bonus.
It's definitely a little bit awkward the way some classes get their combat bonuses in a 'slotless' fashion while others rely on already defined bonus types in the way it creates some unfortunate anti-synergy, but since Paizo keeps doing it it's clearly something they think is good for the game.
Wildshape druids can still be reasonably accurate though when using their own attack bonus and the +2, so it's not really the end of the world that they don't.
Ancestor Oracles are the same way with their Strike buff being a status bonus.
It's definitely a little bit awkward the way some classes get their combat bonuses in a 'slotless' fashion while others rely on already defined bonus types in the way it creates some unfortunate anti-synergy, but since Paizo keeps doing it it's clearly something they think is good for the game.
Wildshape druids can still be reasonably accurate though when using their own attack bonus and the +2, so it's not really the end of the world that they don't.
Certainly not the end of the world and I wasn't trying to say it was. They do still gain the other bonuses from inspire courage and heroism. I just hadn't read any discussion on this topic. I didn't even really notice this till recently and wasn't sure how many others had.
Also as I said earlier that I find it weird that they gain the bonus when using the form spell's innate attack modifier but not when using their own.
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It's worth noting that a baseline druid will almost never get that +2 status bonus to attacks so there's not a lot to worry about.
* The +2 only comes online if you're using your own attack bonus instead of the base animal form's.
* You can only use your own attack bonus if yours is better than the base animal form's.
It's worth noting that a baseline druid will almost never get that +2 status bonus to attacks so there's not a lot to worry about.
* The +2 only comes online if you're using your own attack bonus instead of the base animal form's.
* You can only use your own attack bonus if yours is better than the base animal form's.
A strength optimized wild druid can usually have a higher attack bonus at one level higher than the level a druid can memorize the form spell.
EG
So truthfully a wild druid that maxes str will almost always use it's own attack bonus with wild shape.
Edit
I did point out in both my other 2 posts that when casting the form spell or using wild shape and using the form spells stats a druid does gain the status bonus from other sources.
Also if going for the 1-hour duration, you're casting 2 levels down so the Druid's attack bonus is likely to be better than the battle form's.
Not that I'd recommend having a lower-level battle form unless you have skirmishing mastered. Nor would I recommend a Str-build either since it often hurts Con which seem more important for an 8 h.p. class in melee or Wis which I see as more important too unless really never wanting to cast offensively or to counteract at level I suppose.
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So truthfully a wild druid that maxes str will almost always use it's own attack bonus with wild shape.
Edit
I did point out in both my other 2 posts that when casting the form spell or using wild shape and using the form spells stats a druid does gain the status bonus from other sources.
Not quite.
These are the texts in question:
One or more unarmed melee attacks specific to the battle form you choose, which are the only attacks you can use. You're trained with them. Your attack modifier is +9, and your damage bonus is +1. These attacks are Strength based (for the purpose of the enfeebled condition, for example). If your unarmed attack bonus is higher, you can use it instead.
You infuse yourself with primal essence and transform yourself into another form. You can polymorph into any form listed in pest form, which lasts 10 minutes. All other wild shape forms last 1 minute. You can add more forms to your wild shape list with druid feats; your feat might grant you some or all of the forms from a given polymorph spell. When you transform into a form granted by a spell, you gain all the effects of the form you chose from a version of the spell heightened to wild shape's level. Wild shape allows you to use your own shapeshifting training more easily than most polymorph spells. When you choose to use your own attack modifier while polymorphed instead of the form's default attack modifier, you gain a +2 status bonus to your attack rolls.
You can only choose to use your own modifier If your attack bonus is higher than the animal form's base modifier. When you use it you get +2. One conditional unlocks the other. As a result, a strength-focused druid almost never benefits from the +2 unless they're down-ranking their animal form.
I haven't done the math all the way through level 20 but through level 10 the only level a strength-based druid can overtake their animal form to unlock the +2 is level 4.
The ability to use your own attack bonus from animal form isn't the same as wild shape's. Wild shape is a much more powerful version. It's a bonus for wild druids and they most certainly are able to add that +2 status bonus to qualify to use their own attack bonus. Wild shape's rules overrides animal form's rules. It makes no sense otherwise.
If it worked they way you proposed one could end up with cases where a druid, in the middle of combat, would gain a status bonus that would put their attack bonus over this supposed threshold and would allow them to use their own attack bonus. This would, in turn, let them gain the +2 status bonus from Wild Shape (which could be up to a net +1 bonus). If then then lost the first status bonus would they then lose their wild shape status bonus or would they keep it until they left wild shape. Would my druid then have to keep potions of bless to drink so they can use their Wild Shape status bonus at certain levels.
The way I read the rules is that Wild Shape grants you a +2 status bonus to determine if your attack bonus is higher than the form spell. This is RAI imo if not RAW.
Sorry, I wanted to add that if a Wild Shape druid were unable to use their +2 status bonus to qualify for being able to use their own attack bonus then a player would find themselves, at level 20, with a higher attack bonus for every form spell than their level 20 feat Nature Incarnate (+34) as a level 20 wild shape druid would have +24 prof +6 Str +3 item and +2 status for a total of 35. This also would make no sense to me.
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There's literally nothing in the text for any of the abilities in question that suggests Wild Shape allows a druid to ignore the mechanics for determining your attack bonus while polymorphed. I've quoted all the relevant sections. If you're aware of something I've missed please post it here.
The mechanics aren't that complex.
Is your attack bonus higher than the bonus provided by the spell's battle form?
* If yes, use your own unarmed attack bonus. Also, gain a +2 status bonus to attack.
* If no, use the battle form's attack bonus.
That's it.
I agree it's a bit intuitive that a strength-based druid almost never benefits from the extra +2 bonus. It could be a design oversight in need of some errata. Or, as Castilliano pointed out earlier, that perk might be intended for druids that are using Form Control. It could also be intended to help out druids that don't have access to the more powerful wild shapes or ones that are being forced to down-rank due to space limitations.
At the end of the day is it any weirder than battle medicine or 18 strength goblins?
That actually would help, if bonus would be circumstance, not status.
Of course that wouldn't help other spellscasters who use battleform (and who is not main archetype of fighter, monk or barbarian).
But that's better than nothing.
There's literally nothing in the text for any of the abilities in question that suggests Wild Shape allows a druid to ignore the mechanics for determining your attack bonus while polymorphed. I've quoted all the relevant sections. If you're aware of something I've missed please post it here.
The mechanics aren't that complex.
Is your attack bonus higher than the bonus provided by the spell's battle form?
* If yes, use your own unarmed attack bonus. Also, gain a +2 status bonus to attack.
* If no, use the battle form's attack bonus.
That's it.
I agree it's a bit intuitive that a strength-based druid almost never benefits from the extra +2 bonus. It could be a design oversight in need of some errata. Or, as Castilliano pointed out earlier, that perk might be intended for druids that are using Form Control. It could also be intended to help out druids that don't have access to the more powerful wild shapes or ones that are being forced to down-rank due to space limitations.
At the end of the day is it any weirder than battle medicine or 18 strength goblins?
I have nothing to quote to you. I just believe you're reading more into it than you should. I believe it's worded the way it is in the animal form spell because no one would use their own attack bonus if it were lower. It makes no sense for a druid using wild shape to go from a +16 attack bonus for levels 7, 8 and 9 but suddenly at level 10 they can have a +19 attack bonus. It's clunky and illogical and shows no progression for leveling up. Anyway this is the last I will say on this subject.
That actually would help, if bonus would be circumstance, not status.
Of course that wouldn't help other spellscasters who use battleform (and who is not main archetype of fighter, monk or barbarian).
But that's better than nothing.
I'm fine with the bonus being a status bonus since PF2 has defined magical bonuses as status bonuses. I think my fix would be to inspire courage where I would state that it can stack with another status bonus (possibly to a maximum of +3 if one were worried about level 9 heroism). This would help for future classes like oracles that use similar mechanics.
I also thought of some way of wording the Wild Shape status bonus to instead increase a druid's unarmed proficiency by 1 stage while being in use, but this wouldn't help oracles.
I'm fine with the bonus being a status bonus since PF2 has defined magical bonuses as status bonuses. I think my fix would be to inspire courage where I would state that it can stack with another status bonus (possibly to a maximum of +3 if one were worried about level 9 heroism). This would help for future classes like oracles that use similar mechanics.I also thought of some way of wording the Wild Shape status bonus to instead increase a druid's unarmed proficiency by 1 stage while being in use, but this wouldn't help oracles.
Well, the game is very lackluster of specifically circumstance bonus to attack. I know only two from CRB. Barbarian's Reckless Abandon. Which is only way for barbarians to be on equal terms to fighter and monk, as they don't get legendary proficiency on weapons, and they have to be less than half hit points for that. And fighter's Incredible Aim, which applies only on ranged attacks, and requires two action for a single strike.
And i don't know of a single ability that provides circumstance bonus to attack in APG.That make stacking bonuses to attack very hard to gain decent attack attribute, especially if you do not have legendary proficiency in melee and/or unarmed.
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Really, making feats and passive effects use status bonuses seems like a huge flaw in the game to me.
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I have nothing to quote to you. I just believe you're reading more into it than you should. I believe it's worded the way it is in the animal form spell because no one would use their own attack bonus if it were lower. It makes no sense for a druid using wild shape to go from a +16 attack bonus for levels 7, 8 and 9 but suddenly at level 10 they can have a +19 attack bonus. It's clunky and illogical and shows no progression for leveling up. Anyway this is the last I will say on this subject.
I agree it's odd. That's just one of the quirks of PF2 design. On their own, wild shape druids have stop-and-go progression with big jumps every spell level. It may be intended. It may not be intended. If you try asking a designer maybe they can elaborate. Unfortunately this is the rules forum where we tend to discuss the rules as written or unravel them when they're unclear. In this case, the text I quoted for you is crystal clear. If you can find something to dispute that text please let us know.
If you'd like to discuss houserules to make wild shape work the way you'd like it to work, you might find the Home Brew and Houserules forum more what you're looking for.
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It's a consequence of the tight math - you can't have it both ways.
Circumstance, Item, Status. The big three.
Start adding a fourth, fifth, sixth... and suddenly everything changes (I would argue for the worse). That said...
Maybe a semi-complex houserule that says "If a character benefitting from two Circumstance bonuses, or two Status bonuses, but not from the other type, may treat one as the other, stacking the two together, using the highest from among both" or somesuch.
This'd help solve the "wrong type" anti-synergy without inheriting the (problematic) maths.
Start adding a fourth, fifth, sixth... and suddenly everything changes (I would argue for the worse).
I mean, not necessarily. All martials (minus outwit rangers) already have untyped combat enhancing mechanics. So I don't think it's fair to argue that such a concept would be new or cause the game to break down when it isn't and hasn't (the other way around, really, it'd be pretty rough if some of these mechanics were status bonuses).
It would be nice if was an increasing item bonus that specifically stated it worked while wild shaped. Giving you something like +5 item bonus at the highest level, 2 higher than the most potency runes a weapon can get. Kind of similar to how alchemist mutagens item bonuses can be higher than base runes.
There's nothing concrete about it yet but there are people saying that mountain stance ac bonus might be changing to an item bonus - maybe that would be a good time to change this too.