Good, good. Thanks for the update.
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At one point, the PCs, who are cops, wind up in a situation where they may have to beat citizens unconscious. And not depraved or awful criminals, just people in a bar who are belligerently drunk. Some of them are even Good aligned.
The AP encourages using social skills to deescalate the situation, and I don't think it's all that bad, but it stuck out to me as a bit awkward in terms of timing given real world events.
The PCs also get to 'fine' people and keep the money and return to the station and then requisition gear from defeated opponents...which, while it makes sense in-setting, given the use of civil forfeiture by real police it still leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. This part is easy enough to ignore or change in various ways, but it's less than ideal.
Those are really the only issues I found with it beyond the premise itself being poorly timed, and the first is not a big deal, just slightly off-putting.
At one point, the PCs, who are cops, wind up in a situation where they may have to beat citizens unconscious. And not depraved or awful criminals, just people in a bar who are belligerently drunk. Some of them are even Good aligned.
The AP encourages using social skills to deescalate the situation, and I don't think it's all that bad, but it stuck out to me as a bit awkward in terms of timing given real world events.
The PCs also get to 'fine' people and keep the money and return to the station and then requisition gear from defeated opponents...which, while it makes sense in-setting, given the use of civil forfeiture by real police it still leaves a bit of a sour taste in my mouth. This part is easy enough to ignore or change in various ways, but it's less than ideal.
Those are really the only issues I found with it beyond the premise itself being poorly timed, and the first is not a big deal, just slightly off-putting.
This was my impression as well. The loot system is a bit brutish, but largely this book works hard to truly encourage good guy behavior and interactions.
It definitely plays more like a varied blend of city watch shenanigans than it does a procedural. And it's super creative in terms of the kinds and severity of encounters players will run across.
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In fairness, given the lack of salary, that one if the system itself being messed up rather than the PCs willfully doing something too awful. If taken that way, and the PCs working hard to rise in the ranks so they can push through reforms to change the system, I can sorta see it.
But when I run this, I'm probably ditching it and just giving them appropriate cash rewards. Which will serve to differentiate the AP more from other campaigns.
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When I run this, I intend to just have them given cash as rewards/salary/etc. by the City Guard (at least, for the first four-ish chapters) based on how much money they should get per level or thereabouts, and let them requisition necessary consumables (like a few healing potions).
The amount will be large as they rise in level, but Absalom can afford to pay elite and powerful people doing important work what they're worth.
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My friend and I talked about it and we'll probably do a sort of combo of Zeitgeist's stipend (so a lump sum salary basically) and having a Q-like character.
So basically what DMW said.
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The Knights Marvelous Menagerie is very difficult. The creatures are a few levels higher than the PC's.
Beaktooth - petrified one character and perma slowed another to just 1 action a turn.
Rusty - does a tremendous amount of damage to 1st level characters. One character was taken down quickly.
Chapter 2 appears easier with the creatures levels.
Debating on additional guard help or have the PC's level up in order to finish up the Menagerie.
This should be taken into consideration for calcification and slow.
Go to Update on calcification and slowed.
The Knights Marvelous Menagerie is very difficult. The creatures are a few levels higher than the PC'sI'm running this today. Is it as difficult if the PCs aren't planning to solve everything via combat?
If they look beyond the combat, then I think it is manageable to succeed. Some of the guard npcs from gamemastery guide could help for backup.
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I also think the civil forfeiture system is reeeeeeally not how I want to portray a law enforcement agency that is supposed to be heroic, no matter that I understand it's supposed to be a way for traditional "kill the monsters, loot their stuff" gaming to work for PCs who are cops.
Instead, I'm planning to have Sgt Ollo tell them during their orientation something like, "By the way, if you've gotten used to 'regular pay' at your previous postings, you should probably let that dream die right now. Funding priorities for Edgewatch tend to be a little... uneven... for the folks downtown and that extends to pay schedules and arrest bonuses as well. It all works out in the end, we promise, but if I were you, I'd get used to not knowing exactly when your salary's going to show up. But hey! It's all for the good of the city, amirite?" And then turning Table 10-9 from the core book into pay plus bonuses, requisition authority (permanent items) and requisition authority (consumables), the latter two at Sgt Ollo's discretion based on how the new officers perform - but miraculously lining up pretty much exactly with what the book recommends as treasure drops.
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Or the GMs don't have to change much or anything cause the players can keep the Player and Character knowledge. At this point everyone knows who the villain of Curse of The Crimson Throne is, the GMs don't really change anything there.
This is where being a good cop comes into play, you can't act on assumptions, you have to follow the evidence.
As for diving wildly into AoN that's still a player problem, I regularly read TV Tropes but if there's a game or movie coming out that I don't want to be spoiled on I don't go to the page even though they try to hide spoilers, because it's not 100%.
And then you still have the "issue" of players also getting a copy of the AP and reading it, you can't force your players not to or to give up their subscription.
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Expecting the GM to change the module just because you’ve read it is definitely a player issue (based on how far the slider goes from “hope” to demand”), it defeats the purpose of having a prewritten AP to run on the first place.
As for the latter, again that’s a question of trust, is the “weird” idea feasible for the character and situation? Then it’s not really an issue.
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AON could have put spoiler tags ...
Apparently that's a feature coming to AoN, so I'm fine now.
I told my players not to read any unique items on AoN for now, in any case. Still kind of annoyed by the title of book 1, since it's plastered on the main page of the site as "we added AP ###: Devil at the Dreaming Palace" and the main villain introduces himself as the owner of the Dreaming Palace. A little harder to avoid the book title hint, but hopefully my players don't pay attention that much.
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Bingo, you're more than free to mod the adventure as you see fit to the better enjoyment of yourself and your group. My point is that you're not required to, especially if it's over the concern of the players having played/read the adventure before.
Rysky, normally I agree with you on most things, but I'm not totally understanding why you are so hung up on this.
Asking Paizo to be a little more careful with potential spoilers or asking AoN to tag potential spoilers - which they are apparently planning to do anyway - seems like a pretty reasonable ask. Not all players are good at avoiding metagaming, and I know my players for example are constantly fighting a bit of a tug-of-war between their desire to be surprised by upcoming plot twists and their desire to find interesting magic items for their characters. Anything that makes it easier to avoid accidental spoilers is a win in their book.
"Hey Paizo, this relatively simple change would make things more fun for my players and maybe some others too" seems like pretty valid feedback to me.
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*nods nods*
I'm very interested to see what form the spoiler warning/prevention takes in AoN.
Right now the conversation has slid into GMs feeling that they have to alter the campaign if their players are "spoiled" on a certain thing(s) in whatever way, by owning the adventures themselves or having already played it or by diving through AoN, which I believe not to be true.
Whatever form the spoiler warning will take on AoN, it'll be just that though, a warning, there's nothing stopping people from reading it if they go looking (*cough* TV Tropes).
As for the item in question, I like lore being in the items, especially unique ones, I'd be sad if that all got stripped out.
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*nods nods*
I'm very interested to see what form the spoiler warning/prevention takes in AoN.
Right now the conversation has slid into GMs feeling that they have to alter the campaign if their players are "spoiled" on a certain thing(s) in whatever way, by owning the adventures themselves or having already played it or by diving through AoN, which I believe not to be true.
Whatever form the spoiler warning will take on AoN, it'll be just that though, a warning, there's nothing stopping people from reading it if they go looking (*cough* TV Tropes).
As for the item in question, I like lore being in the items, especially unique ones, I'd be sad if that all got stripped out.
This was the preview the site creator gave me when I asked about such a feature.
I don't HAVE to change things, I'm going to try to frame it as getting them to assume maybe there's some undead stuff happening in the Palace and maybe Prachett will need rescue or is oblivious to it simply because the book title is way too easy to get to and I hope I can get them to want to be his friend so I can enjoy the utter betrayal that follows.
I mean if I'm a player in a published campaign, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to realize that unique items could present spoilers. If you get spoiled expecting the GM to change major parts of the AP they weren't planning on modifying is a bit much. Also I'm pretty sure easy.tool has spoiler tags on all of their stuff.
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I also think the civil forfeiture system is reeeeeeally not how I want to portray a law enforcement agency that is supposed to be heroic
Same same. I think the idea of playing city watch is super cool, but the “civil forfeiture” thing is super uncomfortable.
And then turning Table 10-9 from the core book into pay plus bonuses, requisition authority (permanent items) and requisition authority (consumables), the latter two at Sgt Ollo's discretion based on how the new officers perform - but miraculously lining up pretty much exactly with what the book recommends as treasure drops.
That’s a much more pleasant notion.
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Still kind of annoyed by the title of book 1, since it's plastered on the main page of the site as "we added AP ###: Devil at the Dreaming Palace" and the main villain introduces himself as the owner of the Dreaming Palace.
That’s a problem that goes WAY deeper than Archive of Nethys. The title is all over the place, as well it should be to help sell the book. But maybe choose a title that is a little less spoilerific.
Since this is Pathfinder and “devils” are a literal thing OTHER than serial murdering hoteliers, I wonder if seeding hints about literal devils might be red herring enough to distract from the creepy NPC.
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Not all players are good at avoiding metagaming,
Without a spoiler tag on AoN, a player doesn’t even have to be trying to learn Things Players Were Not Meant to Know. Remember the reason they’re called “spoilers” is that they can spoil the fun whether you intend to have the fun spoiled or not. AoN and Paizo taking (reasonable) steps to prevent that seems pretty reasonable.
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Still kind of annoyed by the title of book 1, since it's plastered on the main page of the site as "we added AP ###: Devil at the Dreaming Palace" and the main villain introduces himself as the owner of the Dreaming Palace.That’s a problem that goes WAY deeper than Archive of Nethys. The title is all over the place, as well it should be to help sell the book. But maybe choose a title that is a little less spoilerific.
Since this is Pathfinder and “devils” are a literal thing OTHER than serial murdering hoteliers, I wonder if seeding hints about literal devils might be red herring enough to distract from the creepy NPC.
The title is "Devil at the Dreaming Palace" not "Devil Who Owns Dreaming Palace."
Maybe all you gotta do is paint him up like a potential victim at his own residence, not the villain?
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Still kind of annoyed by the title of book 1, since it's plastered on the main page of the site as "we added AP ###: Devil at the Dreaming Palace" and the main villain introduces himself as the owner of the Dreaming Palace.That’s a problem that goes WAY deeper than Archive of Nethys. The title is all over the place, as well it should be to help sell the book. But maybe choose a title that is a little less spoilerific.
Since this is Pathfinder and “devils” are a literal thing OTHER than serial murdering hoteliers, I wonder if seeding hints about literal devils might be red herring enough to distract from the creepy NPC.
I had never heard of the book before now so when the title was announced I honestly thought we were gonna deal with fiends and the realm of dreams or something.
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As I said before, the “civil forfeiture” concept in the AP is gross, and even the idea of grateful citizens gifting watch officers equipment smacks of bribery, so I definitely want to do something else.
Having the expected items per level “issued” as watch property for PC use seems reasonable, and should help some.
As others have suggested, I’m inclined to just set aside the whole “you don’t get paid” thing and give the “currency” per level as pay. After very low levels that starts to look ridiculous, though, so I don’t know. Maybe I’ll convert some or all of that money to additional items.
One option might be to assume a successful result at some level on the Earn Income table and give that to each PC weekly. Maybe go the PFS route and make it (Level -2), and possibly cap it at some point. That might give a little coin in pocket without overpowering the PCs, and the issued items could keep them “competitive.”
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I was really excited for a Pratchettesque Night Watch inspired AP, and finally read the first volume last night and am deeply unhappy with it.
It's not just the "civil forfeiture" that's gross, it's the whole framing of the story in which there's a poor and neglected district of the city that a new special police force is formed for in order to clean up so that the city can have a big festival there. That is told just to arbitrarily "fine" anybody who gets out of line to take your cut. But don't worry, the good citizens of the area will be grateful to you. And your characters are supposed to be the GOOD guys in this set up?
This feels less like a bad timing problem for a "few bad apples" police AP and more of a deeply problematic "gentrify by brute force" AP. I really don't like it.
From the book: "In the meantime, the public tolerates the guards’ summary justice, preferring it to the anarchy of an under-policed city".
That isn't just tone deaf, it's f$+#ing grotesque.
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I despise the civil forfeiture aspect, but I will point out, as I have, that the PCs aren’t gentrifying the neighborhood/burning down shanty towns.
To alleviate the latter, Absalom's leaders adopted an ambitious plan. The prominent Absalomian architect Blune Bandersworth, with the support of Grand Councilmember and City Planner Olansa Terimor, propositioned the Grand Council and bid for a contract to magically transform the Precipice Quarter—a district all but destroyed in an earthquake 22 years ago—into the heart of the 4720 ar Radiant Festival. The enthusiasm of Acting Primarch Wynsal Starborn, who since taking his station has wanted to resurrect the Precipice Quarter, sealed the deal for the site of this century's grand fair. The Radiant Festival has already brought gold and tourists to the city like never before, but with such opportunity comes danger. Unable to completely clear the Precipice Quarter of monstrous threats before the opening-day festivities, festival officials have simply cordoned off some parts of the district. Meanwhile, lawbreakers of all sorts see potential gain in the chaos: petty thieves pick the pockets of wealthy travelers and fairgoers, while the machinations of the city's most powerful gangs and criminal families finally reach a boiling point amid the celebration and spill over into all-out street warfare.That being said, this is grotesque:
The Edgewatch is a crucial part of Absalom's plan for hosting the Radiant Festival in the still-perilous Precipice Quarter, but as with every aspect of the fair, the city has had to cut corners in order to fund the festival committee's overly ambitious plans. In order to fill out the Edgewatch's ranks, the Grand Council has adopted an unusual solution: for the duration of the festival, Edgewatch guards will operate as the police version of privateers. Each guard theoretically receives a modest stipend, but in practice only the top brass see any real compensation; the rank-and-file watch members' wages are automatically garnished by the city to pay for food, training, uniforms, and lodging in the station's barracks (regardless of whether the officers actually choose to stay there). The guards' only actual means of earning liquid cash is by requisitioning possessions and money from any criminals they catch breaking major laws—no trial required. All findings are to be meticulously catalogued so as to prevent abuse of power, and any confiscated goods with identifiable owners must be returned. Absalom's Grand Council insists that once the festival is over it will revise the budget and convert the Edgewatch to a normal pay structure. In the meantime, the public tolerates the guards' summary justice, preferring it to the anarchy of an under-policed city. The Edgewatch operates from a newly constructed precinct headquarters near the center of the Precipice Quarter under the command of an infamous veteran of justice, Lieutenant Grospek Lavarsus. The station is a cramped and crowded affair, with a desk-packed main workroom and a few private offices and interrogation cells. Most of the younger guards live in an attached barracks, while guards with their own lodgings and families sleep elsewhere. A small cafeteria and a heavily guarded armory and evidence locker round out the installation. Agents can purchase gear from the Edgewatch's quartermaster, including all the common adventuring gear, weapons, and armor from the Pathfinder Core Rulebook and the new items in the Adventure Toolbox (see page 77).
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I mean if I'm a player in a published campaign, I don't think it's that much of a stretch to realize that unique items could present spoilers. If you get spoiled expecting the GM to change major parts of the AP they weren't planning on modifying is a bit much. Also I'm pretty sure easy.tool has spoiler tags on all of their stuff.
They do, but when Easy Tool has who the Reaper's Lancet belongs to in the summary on the Specific Magic Weapons page, then the warning is just not as useful. My frustration is still not so much that I can't show the Adventurer's Tool Box because there's spoilers in the weapon description (that I still feel like I could argue should have been in the character bio, but I'm nitpicking honestly), it's that I've had to ask players to stay off of Specific Magic Weapons tables on online databases in case they trip over a spoiler. Accidentally exposing yourself to a spoiler seems just absurd.
Archives of Nethys having a spoiler tag is super useful on the page. It irks me there is even spoilers in item descriptions, but I can live with it as I trust my players not to hunt down spoilers (believe me, they could if they wanted to). It leaves me a little livid when someone just looking for gear can just trip on a spoiler accidentally, thus spoiling the adventure for them. Especially one where part of the draw is the mystery.
I'm also not impressed with having a spoiler in the book title, although luckily my players tend to pay less attention to book titles of APs.
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I GMed first session of Agents of Edgewatch yesterday, and thought it might be fun to share observations and notes. Spoilers to follow.
The impact of the APG was felt immediately as our four character party includes a Catfolk Tiefling, a Human Aasimar, an Elf Duskwalker, and a Witch.
We are avoiding the gross “civil forfeiture” angle, and my PCs turned down the free drinks at the Tipsy Tengu after calming the wild adventurers: “We were just doing our job.” Likewise they refused the 50 gp worth of weapons offered by the smith for capturing the rust monster that escaped from Knight’s, though they did allow him to repair the Ranger’s Halberd, which Rusty broke during that encounter. In fact the only “loot” they took was from the skeletons who popped out of the construction site, and that seems pretty reasonable to me. It looks like my squad won’t be accepting bribes.
A moment or two after Pratchett was introduced one of my players said “Wait, what did he say the name of his hotel was? Because this adventure is called “Devil at the Dreaming Palace.” So I stand by my earlier stated position that the title was poorly chosen.
A moment or two Pratchett was introduced one of my players said “Wait, what did he say the name of his hotel was? Because this adventure is called “Devil at the Dreaming Palace.” So I stand by my earlier stated position that the title was poorly chosen.
I said it earlier, probably in this thread, but perhaps you can find a way to paint him as the victim and that something is attacking or haunting his hotel? Then the switcheroo reveal when there is no devil, just a serial killer?
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"Oh no, poor Hendrik Pratchett accidently had his hotel built on the site of an old secret cult headquarters, and has undead and devils now spawning in his basement!"
Easy enough to do as a red herring - could even be partially true, and he's using the old cult summoning energies to help power his nefarious traps.
But it's still a bit annoying to have to change things as written and build that into your narrative just because of the title they choose.
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The title is Devil at the Dreaming Palace, not Devil who owns the Dreaming Palace, with Pratchett mentioning he owns the place at the opening it’d be an assumption to auto assume he’s gonna be the Big Bad, since starting out the players won’t know there’s a Big Bad, or will be focused on the animal incident, until everything starts coming together in chapter 3, and you go after Pratchett in Chapter 4.
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The title is Devil at the Dreaming Palace, not Devil who owns the Dreaming Palace...
I've seen this twice and I feel like it's a bit silly. Yes, it's at, but we are immediately presented with someone who is tied to the place mentioned in the title. While it is an assumption, and we know what they say about assuming, it is a very LIKELY assumption that will be made. In fact, I imagine it will be the first assumption made, and if the GM adds a few red herrings like the others have mentioned they plan to, then the people that assumed at first might think Prachett is the red herring instead, and get..double red herring'd?
This is a lot of fish. How fun!
In any case, a bit irritating, but not the worst and certainly something I can work around to fix, as is my solemn GM duty. It's the item description one I found more annoying. Easy to stumble upon and more annoying to change. Unless I change Prachett's name, but I personally don't need to. I trust my players, I think the haunt angle will be fun to mess with them. I just know other people that run for less close-knit groups and stuff might find it extremely irritating. That kind of spoiler really should be in the character blurb, not the item description.
I think my players kind of glossed over the connection. I'm running a group of 6 and all but one are not new to my games and I gotta tell ya, they got whipped by the cockatrice and the rust monster. Plus, one of them knows that there is an owl bear in the grocer so I can't wait to see how they handle that plus that bastard.
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Does anyone know Absalom's settlement level? Maybe it will be in the Absalom book, but I don't see a release date for that.
I'd bet good money it will be level 20 or very close to it. Absalom is very intentionally the sort of metropolis where you can acquire almost anything.
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The title is Devil at the Dreaming Palace, not Devil who owns the Dreaming Palace, with Pratchett mentioning he owns the place at the opening it’d be an assumption to auto assume he’s gonna be the Big Bad
The title is a reference to “The Devil in the White City,” a book that is literally about a serial murderer hotelier who operated in a major city during the World’s Fair, and this guy is introduced as a hotelier during the Golarion equivalent of the World’s Fair.