Hello, quite new here, wanted to see what the community might think of this idea.
To start, this build by its nature is probably not going to be very min-maxed or "competitive" so to speak but I'm still interested in what people think of it's mechanical viability within its own lane and if there are clear improvements I am missing.
A cursory search of these forums found that his has come up before from time to time but not quite what I was looking for.
The builds in this thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7h5?Kobold-plus-Noxious-Bite#1
are probably the most similar to what I'm talking about but are focused on Noxious Bite and Dragon Disciple more than I had been thinking.
Kobolds only have 5 RP so I understand they are going to be undertuned. I think some DMs might consider making the Kobold stat adjustment a little less punitive but for the purposes of the post lets use the standard ruleset (-4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con)
The high level concept:
- Dragonmaw for a bite attack
- Tail terror for a tail attack
- Claws from Ranger Combat or Barbarian
Pros and Cons:
- + I believe RAW the Kobold can get Multiattack with Tail+Claws+Bite for quite a few attacks per round without TWF, using a one handed weapon or the tail weapon as primary attack
- + Can take the Gliding Wings for further badass descriptions of your little ball of pain combat antics
- + Won't spend as much on weapons as other kobolds (?)
- +/- Day Raider trait is a clear overall improvement to the core kobold in most cases
- - Atrocious kobold statblock
- - Needs Eldricht Claws, in the end it may cost more feats to claw fight than TWF
- What's a Will save?
In the build posted above or any barbarian build I can think of you are really hampered by your lack of strength score. The additional attacks are less interesting given that you only add half your strength bonus anyway.
To try to combat this, my idea was to use Sneak Attacks from the Slayer class which can also gives you the Ranger Combat Style needed to get your Aspect of the Beast Claws.
The Bounty Hunter archetype allows you to substitute Dirty Tricks for Sneak Attacks. - If somehow you have enough feats to take the Kobold-only Merciless Precision you can gain a d6 on all sneak attacks against a target who you are able to Blind or Entangle as part of your dirty trick.
- Kitsune style would further synergize but this would occur pretty late due to lack of feats
- The Bounty Hunter also grants weapon proficiencies in Nets and other entangling weapons that might synergize with this. However this delays your claws slayer talent to level 4.
- The grapple related stuff isn't as useful given that you are size Small although you at least get proficiency in the Bong Dans to counteract this.
Feat wishlist:
- Weapon Finesse
- Tail Fighter
- Multiattack
- Eldricht Claws
- Merciless Precision
- Kitsune Style feats (incl. Improved Dirty Trick)
- Combat Stamina (if used)
The Avalancher archetype provides various bonuses to an attacker who is falling to sneak attack their target which feels like it should be a slam dunk when coupled with gliding wings and a teammate with some sort of magical propulsion - but I don't really see it as the bonuses still aren't that good and you're going to be spending time and energy getting into position to do your avalanche attack.
So those are my thoughts so far. Are there any synergistic Slayer/Rogue/Ninja talents or feats that I've missed? Is Merciless Precision worthwhile? Is any of this worthwhile compared to a more normal 'bold sneak attacker TWFing some daggers? What do ya think?
Thanks for reading
Not spending money on weapons is offset by the insane price of the Amulet of Mighty Fists. Which is necessary for Dex-to-DMG without 19 levels of UnRogue for Finesse Training on three natural attacks.
Natural attacks mean that you are going to be close to the enemy... which makes that penalty to Constitution even worse.
Have you considered a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist build?
The by far easiest solution is Synthesist Summoner. Takes care of your ability score issues right from the beginning (everything else takes a few levels), grants pounce at 1st level (again earlier than anythign else), and a good, scales-with-level amount of natural attacks.
popsthe3rd wrote: Kobolds only have 5 RP so I understand they are going to be undertuned. The problem is way worse than that. The RP system is horribly done, with ability score changes ridiculously underrated. In a proper RP system that correctly vlaues ability scores and doesn't overvalue minor skill bonuses, I'd estimate Kobold at a notable negative RP value. That fits the reality, as a race without any features would be significantly better!
popsthe3rd wrote: + I believe RAW the Kobold can get Multiattack with Tail+Claws+Bite for quite a few attacks per round without TWF, using a one handed weapon or the tail weapon as primary attack If you want to go natural weapons, go all in. Combining manufactured and natural weapons is a dead end.
There're three things you want on a natural attack build:
1) More natural attacks. There're multiplce classes that can grant natural attacks, as well as some feats and items. Bloodrager can get claws (while raging) at 1st level, and a Shifter can basically get almost any 2 natural attacks while not-polymorphed at 1st level, with no time limit.
2) Pounce. Hard to get except via polymorph builds. The earliest apart from Synthesist is Shifter at 4th level.
3) Attack and damage roll bonuses. Almost impossible to get via feats. Some options include Investigator, Warpriest, and Barbarian/Bloodrager (dex-based archetypes or unchained Barb).
Weretouched Shifter gets 2 primary NAs at 1st level, and 5 primary NAs plus pounce at 4th level, without issues with armor/equipment. Practically dead afterwards it makes an excellent base for a multiclass build.
VoodistMonk wrote: Not spending money on weapons is offset by the insane price of the Amulet of Mighty Fists. Which is necessary for Dex-to-DMG without 19 levels of UnRogue for Finesse Training on three natural attacks.
Natural attacks mean that you are going to be close to the enemy... which makes that penalty to Constitution even worse.
I also noticed that Eldricht Claws requires 15 Strength (?) which doesn't make all of this any easier.
That feat seems pretty much mandatory which means putting a lot of resources into strength.
VoodistMonk wrote: Have you considered a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist build? I had not but I see the appeal! Without multiclassing though I am not sure how this class could get (permanent?) claws (and thus Multiattack).
Giving up the extra attack and the 3 AB seems tough since you already are going to 3/4 AB although it might be that this is the cost of viability in other ways.
Given your Multi ability dependency, however, multiclassing such a vivisectionist build might be a good idea since you won't be maxing int.
Thanks for your response.
Derklord wrote: The by far easiest solution is Synthesist Summoner. Takes care of your ability score issues right from the beginning (everything else takes a few levels), grants pounce at 1st level (again earlier than anythign else), and a good, scales-with-level amount of natural attacks. This is a cool solution that I wouldn't have thought of, thanks.
Derklord wrote: The problem is way worse than that. The RP system is horribly done, with ability score changes ridiculously underrated. In a proper RP system that correctly vlaues ability scores and doesn't overvalue minor skill bonuses, I'd estimate Kobold at a notable negative RP value. That fits the reality, as a race without any features would be significantly better! We can definitely agree here. I guess the challenge is part of why I tried to do this.
Derklord wrote: If you want to go natural weapons, go all in. Combining manufactured and natural weapons is a dead end. Is this because of cost limitations? If you could get your hands on any sort of mildly enchanted light weapon with better dice than your claws isn't it a net improvement?
I was under the impression tail weapons were weapons, so you'd have to elect it as your primary or forgo it. Would you recommend forgoing?
Perhaps I have misinterpreted Natural Attacks. In the case that you have a bite and two claws are you able to use each of these as a "primary" attack? I thought you would need to elect just one of your "moves" as the primary.
I guess I also imagined that after a certain level a high BAB class like slayer would have enough "primary" attacks per round that they would want to elect a primary attack (such as claw or a dagger or something) to take advantage and use the rest as secondary. This would be particularly true in the case that you are sneak attacking to maximize dice rolls.
You clearly have more experience than me though so maybe I'm doing the math wrong.
Derklord wrote: There're three things you want on a natural attack build:
1) More natural attacks. There're multiplce classes that can grant natural attacks, as well as some feats and items. Bloodrager can get claws (while raging) at 1st level, and a Shifter can basically get almost any 2 natural attacks while not-polymorphed at 1st level, with no time limit.
2) Pounce. Hard to get except via polymorph builds. The earliest apart from Synthesist is Shifter at 4th level.
3) Attack and damage roll bonuses. Almost impossible to get via feats. Some options include Investigator, Warpriest, and Barbarian/Bloodrager (dex-based archetypes or unchained Barb).
It seems to me using Slayer Talents/Ranger Combat feats on the natural weapon line is a good way to get permanent claws other than Shifter?
While I understand that it can be quite a few claws per day I'm still a little concerned that if the whole build is based around natural weapons it'd be frustrating to have to ration them. Or even wake up in the middle of the night etc.
Derklord wrote: Weretouched Shifter gets 2 primary NAs at 1st level, and 5 primary NAs plus pounce at 4th level, without issues with armor/equipment. Practically dead afterwards it... It is unclear to me if you keep the kobold natural attacks in hybrid form in the rules? I assume the gliding wings would be up to DM discretion as that's more of a niche thing.
I kind of liked the idea of not using polymorph effects, partially just because these are available to all races and I liked the idea of using the kobolds innate... underpoweredness.
However the dragonskinned werekobold seems quite lovely especially if rules and forms allow you to truly add those NAs onto the bite and tail whip you can get as a kobold for... well a whole lot of NAs.
But again, see above for my (mis)understanding of primary/secondary Natural Attacks.
popsthe3rd wrote: Perhaps I have misinterpreted Natural Attacks. In the case that you have a bite and two claws are you able to use each of these as a "primary" attack? I thought you would need to elect just one of your "moves" as the primary. That was how the rules were in 3.X, Pathfinder drastically changed that. If you only make natural attacks, you can have as many primary attacks as you want. So with a bite and two claws, you have three attacks at full BAB (and full strength, or in the case of an Agile AoMF full dex). That also means you don't need Multiattack. Combining natural attacks with a manufactured weapon makes all NAs secondary, which is a huge loss. Especially since you can usually get more than three primary natural attacks.
popsthe3rd wrote: It seems to me using Slayer Talents/Ranger Combat feats on the natural weapon line is a good way to get permanent claws other than Shifter? It's OK, but takes two levels; dito for Barbarian. Shifter and Bloodrager (with the Hag-Driven archetype, or Draconic or Sphinx bloodline) only take a single level, and in Pathfinder, even a Martial usually doesn't want to dip much. Urban Bloodrager makes the rage a dex-bonus (and also removes the AC penalty), so the dip also boosts your combat prowess.
popsthe3rd wrote: It is unclear to me if you keep the kobold natural attacks in hybrid form in the rules? I assume the gliding wings would be up to DM discretion as that's more of a niche thing. You lose all natural attacks, and anything dependent on the form (which the glide ability clearly is seeing how it's based on wings), when affected by a polymorph effect. Even though a Weretouched Shifter's hybrid form keeps your general shape, it's still a polymorph effect. Gliding Wings is super weak though, anyway, because you can't train Fly without being actually able to fly. Weretouched Shifter can get 5 primary attacks from the four class levels alone, plus possibly more from feats, so it works out well.
popsthe3rd wrote: I kind of liked the idea of not using polymorph effects, partially just because these are available to all races and I liked the idea of using the kobolds innate... underpoweredness. Polymorphing also works drastically different from 3.X - you only get some small ability score bonuses (+2 strength when polymorphing into a medium sized creature, for instance) and otherwise keep your ability scores. A kobold will have very poor strength even when polymorphed! Weretouched Shifter also keeps your general form, and as a bonus, all your natural attacks count as magical, cold iron, and silver for DR penetration!
Doesn't going Warpriest and choosing natural weapons as your Focus Weapon solve pretty much all these problems?
JiaYou wrote: Doesn't going Warpriest and choosing natural weapons as your Focus Weapon solve pretty much all these problems? Weapon Focus doesn't let you select a broad category of weapons, you have to select an individual weapon. If you look under Fighter, among weapon training categories it has "Natural: unarmed strike and all natural weapons, such as bite, claw, gore, tail, and wing."
Which indicates that Bite, Claw, Gore, Tail and Wing are all separate weapons.
If you look under the Universal Monster Rules Natural Attacks has even more selections.
If you wanted to max out a Kobold for doing natural weapon damage...I like Fighter. Select Natural for weapon training. That adds to all of your natural attacks. Full BAB. Tons of combat feats. Also the Kobold racial preferred class choice for fighter is +1/2 damage to weapon attacks vs opponents they flank or are denied dex bonus.
What will really make this build blow up are the Advanced Weapon Training options. Weapon Focus will raise the base damage of the natural attacks. Warrior's Spirit will allow the Fighter to temporarily enhance one of his natural weapons, and Weapon Specialist will let the fighter take a few feats that apply to a single weapon and apply them to the entire natural weapons group. Weapon Focus + Weapon Specialist are a no brainer.
Weapon Finesse is needed to shift from str to dex to hit. Get an Amulet of Mighty Fists with just Agile special ability. It doesn't need to have a plus to hit, though you want a +1 enhancement bonus as soon as you can afford it so you won't be at a disadvantage against creatures that need magic to overcome DR.
The main problem is acquiring claws. A level of Shifter is an option. Two levels of Ranger and the Aspect of the Beast feat would also work. You could ask the GM to give you permission to take Aspect of the Beast without the qualifications to do so. Or you could try to get claws from a magic item later...much later. Shifter is probably the most viable option.
The Advanced Weapon Training Focus Weapon will give warpriest scaling damage with the above combo. Since Weapon Focus will apply to all I believe Focus Weapon would too.
JiaYou wrote: Doesn't going Warpriest and choosing natural weapons as your Focus Weapon solve pretty much all these problems? How does Warpriest help with the extreme dependancy on full attacks that natural weapon builds have?
Warpriest is certainly doable, as the Animal Blassing can grant claws (albei it takes a standard action to activate), and Fervor'd Divine Favor works very well with natural weapons. I'd be tempted to at least dip into Shifter (with the alternate natural attacks thingy from Wilderness Origins, Shifter Claws can grant e.g. talons instead, leading to three permanent primary natural weapons plus two activatable ones), if not straight up four levels of Weretouched Shifter. The Feral Champion archetype grants two permanent claws, and an (time limited) pounce at 9th level,
Meirril wrote: If you wanted to max out a Kobold for doing natural weapon damage...I like Fighter. It doesn't grant additional natural attacks, it doesn't help you move and full attack, and the increase to attack and damage rolls is mediocre. Warrior Spirit and Focus Weapon only apply to one single weapon (of which you want to have four or more), NA builds are notoriously hard to find good combat feats for, and full BAB is not important.
Dragonborn3 wrote: Since Weapon Focus will apply to all I believe Focus Weapon would too. Nope, unlike an actual Warpriest, the ability is not actually keyed to the feat. "The fighter selects one weapon", that's it. And since an AWT is a class feature and not a feat, Weapon Specialist (not even if you select Focus Weapon it via the AWT feat).
Feral Champion Warpriest with the Fate's Favored trait.
With 20 point buy:
14 Str
13 Dex
13 Con
7 Int
13 Wis
7 Cha
Yeah, you're dumping stats hard and have to wear heavy armor, but there are trade-offs to make when using the worst statted race in the game. One ability increase goes to Con, remainder to Str, use a headband to increase Wis high enough to cast your highest level spells. Can even take Eldritch Claws at level 6 if you like, since WP bonus feats count as full BAB.
-Bite from Dragonmaw level 1
-Two claws from Feral archetype at level 1
-Tail Slap from Tail Terror at level 3 (and you already qualify for Multiattack if you want)
-Two hoof attacks from casting Monstrous Extremities on yourself in the morning (has hours/level duration). This starts at level 7.
-Two wing attacks from Powerful Wings and Gliding trait. level 11
Worship Apsu (thematic for a Kobold anyway). Deity's favored weapon is bite, and the archetype grants claws that automatically scale with Sacred Weapon, so use your free Weapon Focus on whichever natural attack you prefer (Tail for earliest use, hoof for earliest use on two weapons probably the best choice, wings for earliest use on two permanent weapons).
You are starting the game with 3 attacks that each have 1d6 and are all primary, and fervor at level 2 means you can swift-buff with Divine Favor (boosted by Fate's Favored) for a total of +5 to hit at 1d6+4 damage on all your attacks. By the time martials are getting a single iterative, you're just one level away from making 4 attacks each round (5 if you can cast monstrous extremities twice with bonus spells from Wis), and Divine Favor has increased by an additional 1 to-hit and damage. Usually I like to use Fervor for frequent swift casting, but you only need one buff to stay relevant, so extra uses of fervor will be used to swift heal yourself when needed, without breaking up your full attack rhythm (you are a d8 with only 13-14 Con after all). Using the above, you have a free feat at levels 1, 5, 7, and a bonus combat feat at 9, so you can pick whatever your favorite feats are for a front liner (toughness, power attack, more weapon focuses, etc). At level 11....
Amulet of Mighty Fists +3 (36k)
Belt of Giant Str +4 (16k)
Headband of Wis +2 (4k)
Full Plate + 2 (5.5k)
Still have 25% your wealth to spend.
3 primary attacks +19 for 1d10+10 damage.
2 secondary attacks +18 for 1d10+8 damage.
3 secondary attacks +17 for 1d4+8 (or take Weapon Focus additional times to move them into the 1d10 category and get that extra +1 to hit).
1 more primary attack with a swift-buff Divine Power (+19, 1d10+10).
You can also summon a Woolly Rhino with a blessing to get a flanking partner.
Regular martials will probably be closer to +25/+20/+15 at 1d8+15, but you are making literally triple their number of attack rolls, and you started with a small Kobold. Your AC will be abysmal though (around 23), so you'll probably need to throw Shield of Faith on yourself whenever possible just to have a chance of not taking hits.
If someone in your party can cast Enlarge Person, you're a natural choice since the damage dice will increase to 2d8 for sacred weapons. Otherwise at level 13 you can buff with Righteous Might and get the size increase all by yourself.
Honestly, I found the most irritating thing was keeping track of all the little differences between natural attacks when making my rolls (some have +1 to hit from Weapon Focus, some don't, few different die sizes), so make a cheat sheet.
popsthe3rd wrote: Boldclaw - Viability of Natural Weapon Kobold?... I'm still interested in what people think of it's mechanical viability within its own lane and if there are clear improvements I am missing. Okay, let's see what we can do.
Derklord wrote: The by far easiest solution is Synthesist Summoner. Derklord's right: Synthesist Summoners are so powerful, most GMs ban them. They haven't been Pathfinder Society legal for a long time, for instance. But I'm pretty sure when you're a Synthesist, your Race doesn't matter. I'm guessing the OP wants to explore and grow from his Kobold nature and not do an end-run around it.
popsthe3rd wrote: Dragonmaw for a bite attack
Tail terror for a tail attack
Claws from Ranger Combat or Barbarian
So, this tells me you want to go for a big Full Attack. That's very reasonable. And this is a good start: when it comes to Natural Attacks, the more you get, the more you get. So let's see how many we can get.
Derklord wrote: There're three things you want on a natural attack build:
1) More natural attacks. There're multiplce classes that can grant natural attacks, as well as some feats and items. Bloodrager can get claws (while raging) at 1st level, and a Shifter can basically get almost any 2 natural attacks while not-polymorphed at 1st level, with no time limit.
It is not very often when Derklord and I agree on anything: take heed!
Some other ways to get a Claw Attack:
Alchemist Feral Mutagen give you both Claws and a Bite.
Sorcerers and Bloodragers can get Claw Attacks with Bloodlines and Bloodrage.
Nails are available as a Witch's Hex. They are not as good as Claws: Secondary instead of Primary natural attacks, but you are already getting a Tail Attack, and that is a Secondary Natural Attack, so you'll be taking Multiattack, anyway.
Get a Gore Attack:
Gore can is available as a Barbaarian Rage Power: Lesser Fiend Totem
Helm of the Mammoth Lord
Animal Mask: not as nice as the HotML, but significantly cheaper.
Hair Attack:
Dip a level in White Haired Witch, and get a Hair Primary Natural Attack. If you want both White Hair and Nails, you'd have to also dip into Magus with the Hexcrafter Archetype. Technically, I think you could get White Hair, Prehensile Hair, and Nails that way.
Tentacle Cloak
Expensive, but it gives you 2 Secondary Natural Tentacle Attacks.
Unarmed Strikes
If you combine Unarmed Strikes in with your Full Attack, all your Primary Natural Attacks are demoted to Secondary, but since 1 or more of your Natural Attacks are Secondary already, and so you will be taking Multiattack already to mitigate the penalty, it might be worthwhile to develop Unarmed Strikes and take 2 Weapon Fighting. It might result in an overall loss of DPR; it might be a good idea. You'll have to make 2 versions of the character and crunch the numbers yourself.
awbattles wrote:
You are starting the game with 3 attacks that each have 1d6 and are all primary, and fervor at level 2 means you can swift-buff with Divine Favor (boosted by Fate's Favored) for a total of +5 to hit at 1d6+4 damage on all your attacks. By the time martials are getting a single iterative, you're just one level away from making 4 attacks each round (5 if you can cast monstrous extremities twice with bonus spells from Wis), and Divine Favor has increased by an additional 1 to-hit and damage. Usually I like to use Fervor for frequent swift casting, but you only need one buff to stay relevant, so extra uses of fervor will be used to swift heal yourself when needed, without breaking up your full attack rhythm (you are a d8 with only 13-14 Con after all). Using the above, you have a free feat at levels 1, 5, 7,... Realized an error after. Small warpriest only gets 1d4 at level 1 for Sacred weapons, and by level 11 it would be 1d8. Still not bad, and only losing 1 average damage per hit, but it does mean that a single size increase won't be all that impressive, so don't beg for Enlarge Person.
Derklord wrote: Attack and damage roll bonuses. Almost impossible to get via feats. Some options include Investigator, Warpriest, and Barbarian/Bloodrager (dex-based archetypes or unchained Barb). Merril wrote: I like Fighter. Select Natural for weapon training. That adds to all of your natural attacks. Full BAB. The thing here is global attack and Damage Bonuses that don't scale down with size. Your Base Weapon Damage scales down with size, but bonuses from Barbarian Rage do not.
So, that Barbarian Rage Strength Bonus does not scale down with Size, and it is multiplied by the number of attacks you get. Unchained Barbarians get a Rage Power called Powerful Stance that gives them an additional +1 Damage that goes up every 4 levels.
The Warpriest Lesser Blessing of Destruction has something like that. People have been talking about Warpriest Sacred Weapon Base Damage, but you should take a look at the Arsenal Chaplin Archetype. That gives you Attack and Damage Bonuses instead of changing your Base Damage, and that might be better for a Natural Attacking Kobold. In addition, Warpriests get to self-buff with Swift Actions with the Fervor Class Ability. I'm particularly fond of the Weapons Against Evil Spell, which bypasses Damage Reduction: the bane of Natural Attacking Characters.
popsthe3rd wrote: Claws from Ranger Combat or Barbarian My favorite Ranger Archetype is Freebooter. They get Freebooter's Bane instead of Favored Enemy. That lets you mark a single opponent as a Move Action, and you and all your allies get +1 Attack and Damage against that opponent until you pick another. That +1 Attack and Damage goes up every 5 levels.
VoodistMonk wrote: Have you considered a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist build? An Alchemal Mutagen can give you a +4 Stength and +1 Natural Armor that stacks with Barbarian Rage and most other things. Alchemists have lots of self-buffing options.
Also, you should calculate what the Power Attack Feat would do for your DPR on different ACs of opponents.
VoodistMonk wrote: Vivisectionist Alchemist Vivisectionists get Sneak Attack, and that sure doesn't scale down with size. This can be quite effective, but you need to put in place some tactics that will guaranty you actually get your Sneak Attack Damage. There are ways. It's doable.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
So, this tells me you want to go for a big Full Attack. That's very reasonable. And this is a good start: when it comes to Natural Attacks, the more you get, the more you get. So let's see how many we can get.
Derklord wrote: There're three things you want on a natural attack build:
1) More natural attacks. There're multiplce classes that can grant natural attacks, as well as some feats and items. Bloodrager can get claws (while raging) at 1st level, and a Shifter can basically get almost any 2 natural attacks while not-polymorphed at 1st level, with no time limit.
It is not very often when Derklord and I agree on anything: take heed!
....
Thanks a lot for the informative post
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Some other ways to get a Claw Attack:... This makes me think the key is balancing the (diminishing) returns from multiclassing for more claws.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Nails are available as a Witch's Hex. They are not as good as Claws: Secondary instead of Primary natural attacks, but you are already getting a Tail Attack, and that is a Secondary Natural Attack, so you'll be taking Multiattack, anyway.
...
I had been wondering about a 2 level dip into witch for nails and hair, additionally this would qualify for Extra Hex if there's anything else I wanted. A dip in Hag Riven archetype witch would be really great but the class is banned from multiclassing I think.
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Unarmed Strikes
If you combine Unarmed Strikes in with your Full Attack...
I didn't realize the full scale of how this part worked. Thanks. Is there a limit on the utility of the strikes here? Can you punch + claw? I imagine you can at least kick + claw?
Meirril wrote: If you wanted to max out a Kobold for doing natural weapon damage...I like Fighter. Select Natural for weapon training. That adds to all of your natural attacks. Full BAB. Tons of combat feats. Also the Kobold racial preferred class choice for fighter is +1/2 damage to weapon attacks vs opponents they flank or are denied dex bonus.
What will really make this build blow up are the Advanced Weapon Training options....
Thanks a lot for this post, I had overlooked the whole interaction of getting Weapon Focus to apply to everything. I like the idea of being basically a fighter (with a little multiclass flavor mixed in for more natural attacks) who uses the natural attacks and this seems like a cool approach.
awbattles wrote: Feral Champion Warpriest with the Fate's Favored trait. I love this, thanks for your little errata about the impact of the kobolds small size, still super awesome.
awbattles wrote: -Two hoof attacks from casting Monstrous Extremities on yourself in the morning (has hours/level duration). This starts at level 7.
Worship Apsu (thematic for a Kobold anyway). Deity's favored weapon is bite, and the archetype grants claws that automatically scale with Sacred Weapon, so use your free Weapon Focus on whichever natural attack you prefer (Tail for earliest use, hoof for earliest use on two weapons probably the best choice, wings for earliest use on two permanent weapons).
Oh hell yes, excellent additions.
awbattles wrote:
Regular martials will probably be closer to +25/+20/+15 at 1d8+15, but you are making literally triple their number of attack rolls, and you started with a small Kobold.
awbattles wrote: and you started with a small Kobold. Quoted for emphasis
awbattles wrote:
Honestly, I found the most irritating thing was keeping track of all the little differences between natural attacks when making my rolls (some have +1 to hit from Weapon Focus, some don't, few different die sizes), so make a cheat sheet.
Appreciate the tip. Did you play this little monster? Between what levels? Was it as good a time as it looks?
popsthe3rd wrote: Is there a limit on the utility of the strikes here? The problem with combining Unarmed Strikes into your Full Attack is that it imposes penalties on your Primary Natural Attacks: Claws, Bite, White Hair, and Gore are all Primary Natural Attacks: no Attack Penalty and you get your full Strength Mod to Damage. But once you throw in those Unarmed Strikes, all those Primary Natural Attacks become Secondary: -5 to Attack and only 1/2 your Strength Mod can apply to Damage. Your Tail is a Secondary Natural Attack already, so would not get any further penalty. But since you have a Tail Attack, you would be taking Multiattack anyway, so instead of those terrible -5s, you have much more reasonable -2s, and since you are a Kobold, your Strength Bonus was not going to be all that much anyway. But calculating your DPR is complicated, and you won't quite know if adding 2 Unarmed Strikes will be worth the penalties on the rest until you sort out the rest of your character and crunch those numbers.
You can't usually do Flurry of Blows or Brawler's Flurry and also do Natural Attacks. You would get 2 Unarmed Strikes: a primary and an Off-Hand, although you don't need to use Hands:
popsthe3rd wrote: Can you punch + claw? I imagine you can at least kick + claw? Maybe not punch, but there is no reason why you can't make Unarmed Strikes and 2 Claw Attacks. Unarmed Strikes do not use any specific body part, so they are available to you even if your hands and feet were all occupied.
popsthe3rd wrote: This makes me think the key is balancing the (diminishing) returns from multiclassing for more claws. Any good melee character build is a complicated balancing act, but I'm not sure what you mean by a diminishing return on multiclassing. Like I was saying before, Barbarian Rage stacks with Alchemal Strength Mutagen, and that stacks with Freebooter's Bane. You don't want to spend too much time self-buffing at the start of combat, but 1 round of self buffing is usually reasonable: Drink a Mutagen as a Standard Action, use Freebooter's Bane as a Move Action, and enter a Rage as a Free Action. Take the Potion Glutton Feat so you can take an Extract or your Mutagen as a Swift Action.
2 levels in Barbarian can give you a Gore Attack. 2 levels in Ranger can give you your Claw Attacks. 1 level in Witch can give you your Hair Attack. Lots of Multiclassing means you will not get high level spells or class abilities, but if your character is based on accumulating bonuses and not achieving high level class abilities, there's no reason not to consider dipping into more and more classes if you keep getting good stuff.
I think laying some more groundwork is in order.
The number one reason why natural weapon builds are competitive is because they can get a bunch of attack as full BAB and full strength (or full dex in the case of Agile AoMF), something notoriously hard to do with weapons.
The number one downside is that the attacks are harder to improve, as enchantment cost is higher, and many things from feats like Weapon Focus and Weapon Specialization to class features like Inquisitor's Bane or Swashbuckler's Precise Strike only apply to some or sometimes not at all.
The "three things you want on a natural attack build" I listed in my first post all flow directly from this:
1) "More natural attacks." Not only is it actually pretty easy to get more natural weapons (feats can grant them, plenty of class features that grant them, polmyorphing can be a beast pun intended, and even some magic items do that), there is also not much competition.
2) "Pounce" Since we're going for quantity instead of quality, having to move and thus being reduced to a single attack is way worse for us than for a weapon user.
3) "Attack and damage roll bonuses." Damage roll bonuses are obviosuly the better the more attacks we make. And while weapon-based full BAB builds usually end up having more attack roll bonus than they can use (for their attacks at full BAB), the lower enchantment bonus and lack of Weapon Focus et al. usually prevent the same thing applyign to natural weapon builds. Barbarian with Reckless Abandon being an exception.
There are also some other things that can be drawn from the premise:
• Since our attack roll is comperatively low alread, and the main damage bonuses are from strength and power attack, secondary natural attacks are much worse, and are not always worth investing into. This is also the reason combining natural weapons and manufactured weapon/unarmed strieks is usually bad, because it removes what makes natural weapon builds good! Multiattack offers some help with the attack roll, but not with the damage roll, and is thus in practise usually not worth it.
• Effects that increase the damage with all attacks are good for us because they affect more attacks than intended for. Of course, effects that affect fewer of our attacks than assumed are obviously worse for us.
• As there are few(er) combat feats that actually help us, bonus combat feats are worth less than they are for weapon builds.
• Full BAB is also worth less, because it not only doesn't grant us iterative attacks, but we also don't usually have feats with high BAB requirements that we want to take, making BAB nothing more than a bonus to attack (and via Power Attack damage) rolls.
Note that there is a limit to the above - as some point, you're good enough against enemies that you can see, get adjacent to, and that don't have DR. At that point adding more natural a weapons would be a "win more", and you'd be better advised to invest these recources in dealing with situations that don't play to your strengths.
popsthe3rd wrote: I didn't realize the full scale of how this part worked. Thanks. Is there a limit on the utility of the strikes here? Can you punch + claw? I imagine you can at least kick + claw? "You can make attacks with natural weapons in combination with attacks made with a melee weapon and unarmed strikes, so long as a different limb is used for each attack." CRB pg. 182 Which body parts you can make unarmed strikes with is not really clear cut in the rules, the officially mentioned unarmed srikes are all with head, arms, or legs. If you have natural weapons on each of these (bite, 2 claws, 2 talons for instance), it might get a little problematic depending on how your GM interprets the rules.
I'd still advise against it in the first place, because you'll end up losign more than you'd gain. You need Improved Unarmed Strike, Two-Weapon Fighting, and Multiattack (which, despite what Scott may say, you do not want anyway) is a pretty big investment. I'd also like tom point out that such builds are unarmed builds foremost, the natural weapons will (in all likelyhood) deal less damage.
Since you didn't reply to my post, is everything cleared up regarding natural attacks (the primary/secondary stuff), and polymorphing? I'm not sure you understand how big the difference between primary and secondary attacks is.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: People have been talking about Warpriest Sacred Weapon Base Damage, but you should take a look at the Arsenal Chaplin Archetype. That gives you Attack and Damage Bonuses instead of changing your Base Damage, and that might be better for a Natural Attacking Kobold. You can totally scratch the "might" part. Molthuni Arsenal Chaplain is a strict upgrade to vanilla Warpriest when it comes to doing damage, no matter the weapon. I'm not sure it's better than Feral Champion for this character, but it's better than vanilla Warpriest. Martial Versatility (I'm shocked you didn't mention it yet!), selectable with the 6th level bonus feat, takes care of the Weapon Focus issue.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Take the Potion Glutton Feat so you can take an Extract or your Mutagen as a Swift Action. That only makes it a move action (and you'd need to have them in hand to begin with, obviously).
popsthe3rd wrote: awbattles wrote: Feral Champion Warpriest with the Fate's Favored trait. I love this, thanks for your little errata about the impact of the kobolds small size, still super awesome.
awbattles wrote: -Two hoof attacks from casting Monstrous Extremities on yourself in the morning (has hours/level duration). This starts at level 7.
Worship Apsu (thematic for a Kobold anyway). Deity's favored weapon is bite, and the archetype grants claws that automatically scale with Sacred Weapon, so use your free Weapon Focus on whichever natural attack you prefer (Tail for earliest use, hoof for earliest use on two weapons probably the best choice, wings for earliest use on two permanent weapons).
Oh hell yes, excellent additions.
awbattles wrote:
Regular martials will probably be closer to +25/+20/+15 at 1d8+15, but you are making literally triple their number of attack rolls, and you started with a small Kobold.
awbattles wrote: and you started with a small Kobold. Quoted for emphasis
awbattles wrote:
Honestly, I found the most irritating thing was keeping track of all the little differences between natural attacks when making my rolls (some have +1 to hit from Weapon Focus, some don't, few different die sizes), so make a cheat sheet.
Appreciate the tip. Did you play this little monster? Between what levels? Was it as good a time as it looks? Glad you found some interesting stuff in there. Monstrous Extremities is a huge boon to any natural attack build that isn't just polymorphing
I played a less-effective variant of this using an Oracle that transitioned into Dragon Disciple; Lunar mystery has a revelation that grants some temporary natural attacks, either claws or gore. It was actually a lot of fun, especially around level 7 when I had my highest number of attacks compared to others (The bite/tail/hoof/hoof/claw combo). The biggest issue was deciding how much to buff (spending two rounds at the beginning of battle is a real detriment), which the Warpriest should get around more easily, and tracking the dice as mentioned above (I had limited use claws from a couple of different sources, and an improved 1.5str-to-damage bite that only worked with the DD claws, etc), but ultimately he was very capable, and played well from level 2 on (because I only had bite at level 1, should be much more devastating earlier this route). Ended up going to level 13, and never felt a real drop in effectiveness, and the roleplay of being a miniature champion for the weak didn't get old XD.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Take the Potion Glutton Feat so you can take an Extract or your Mutagen as a Swift Action. Derklord wrote: That only makes it a move action (and you'd need to have them in hand to begin with, obviously). Huh, Potion Glutton remains unchanged in the wording of the Feat description.
Potion Glutton wrote: You can drink potions, elixirs, or other potables as a swift action without provoking attacks of opportunity. The OP should ask his GM for a ruling.
But FAQ beats the regular text.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: Unarmed strike stuff Thanks for the explanation.
Scott Wilhelm wrote: popsthe3rd wrote: This makes me think the key is balancing the (diminishing) returns from multiclassing for more claws. Any good melee character build is a complicated balancing act, but I'm not sure what you mean by a diminishing return on multiclassing. Like I was saying before, Barbarian Rage stacks with Alchemal Strength Mutagen, and that stacks with Freebooter's Bane. You don't want to spend too much time self-buffing at the start of combat, but 1 round of self buffing...
This is an answer to the question I was I guess indirectly asking. It sounds taking 4 classes before level 10 would be not just viable, but your recommendation from a strength of build perspective. Which is cool to me!
Derklord wrote: I think laying some more groundwork is in order.
The number one reason why natural weapon builds are competitive is because they can get a bunch of attack as full BAB and full strength
I think that it's the full strength bonus that is creating some confusion. I do understand the rest of your list (and really appreciate it), particularly the reason you need to focus on getting pounce.
You first responded with the list before I had seen some of the other responses and I was more skeptical about being able to achieve a worthwhile damage ability modifier where the loss from primary vs. secondary natural attacks became really relevant.
For this reason I figured I would need to be generating damage from sneak attacks or other stuff anyway, with the natural weapons acting as a way to generate a ton of sneak attack dice for instance*. With some of the more recent builds people have recommended that can start to approach more meaningful damage bonuses I can see how it becomes more important.
* I now see how important pounce would be for this, thanks for the help
Derklord wrote: Since you didn't reply to my post, is everything cleared up regarding natural attacks (the primary/secondary stuff), and polymorphing? I'm not sure you understand how big the difference between primary and secondary attacks is. I think I'm clear on the natural attack functions and polymorph. It took a while to figure out how polymorph was different from my expectations and I have to check a lot what effects the different spell levels give you but I think I get it.
The polymorph "general form" loss of the kobolds natural effects turns me off a bit from the flavor perspective, but I guess I'd need to look a little more into the math and count out and compare the feat investments to see what would feel comfortable from a gameplay perspective.
awbattles wrote: Glad you found some interesting stuff in there. Monstrous Extremities is a huge boon to any natural attack build that isn't just polymorphing
I played a less-effective variant of this using an Oracle that transitioned into Dragon Disciple; Lunar mystery has a revelation that grants some temporary natural attacks, either claws or gore. It was actually a lot of fun, especially around level 7 when I had my highest number of attacks compared to others (The bite/tail/hoof/hoof/claw combo). The biggest issue was deciding how much to buff (spending two rounds at the beginning of battle is a real detriment), which the Warpriest should get around more easily, and tracking the dice as mentioned above (I had limited use claws from a couple of different sources, and an improved 1.5str-to-damage bite that only worked with the DD claws, etc), but ultimately he was very capable, and played well from level 2 on (because I only had bite at level 1, should be much more devastating earlier this route). Ended up going to level 13, and never felt a real drop in effectiveness, and the roleplay of being a miniature champion for the weak didn't get old XD.
Thanks a lot
Here's a thought about a build.
1Barbarian1: Dragonmaw, Tail Terror, +4 ST
2B1Witch1: White Hair
3B2W1: Lesser Fiend Totem (Gore Attack), Feat
4B2W1Ranger1: Freebooter's Bane
5B2W1R2: Aspect of the Beast, Feat
Maybe another level or so in Ranger for Endurance, or keep taking levels in Ranger to increase the +'s in Freebooter's Bane and cast spells and stuff. Maybe keep taking levels in Barbarian to increase the +'s in Powerful Stance. You could just keep taking level in White Haired Witch, but if you were going to be all about the White Hair, then that doesn't really play into exploring your Kobold nature: it would have the same problem as being a Druidzilla or Synthesist. Although, Synthesist might not be as bad as I think, and if you were a Druidzilla that focused on being a Stegosaurus or something, then you'd be a real tail terror...
Still another option for levels 6+ would be Warpriest and start taking Weapon Focus for all your natural Attacks. You could be an Arsenal Chaplin and take take the Blessings of Destruction. Dahak's Favored Weapon is Bite, so you don't even need Weapon Focus for that to be a Sacred Weapon, and he can give you the Blessing of Destruction, which give you more Damage Bonus. Fervor lets you Self-Buff with Cleric Spells as Swift Actions, so Bull Strength and Weapons Against Evil as Swift Actions. And Good Will Saves.
popsthe3rd wrote: I think that it's the full strength bonus that is creating some confusion. (...) I was more skeptical about being able to achieve a worthwhile damage ability modifier where the loss from primary vs. secondary natural attacks became really relevant. Agile on an Amulet of Mighty Fists replaces the strength bonus to damage rolls with your dex bonus, and since it follows the same rules as the strength bonus, it gets halfed by the attack being secondary. I mentioned it in my second post and was kinda presuming it, because I have rarely seen a character that profits more from it.
You're absolutely right that the more the damage comes from other sources, the better secondary attacks get in comparison. It mainly comes down to investment and reward - a -2 penalty is still a -2 penalty, and it eats a feat to even get there. There are actually feats that can grant primary natural weapons (e.g. Spirit Oni Master can grant a gore attack, and for polymorph builds Chaos Reigns can add a slam). Unarmed strike builds take up feats (or class levels), too, and drastically change the focus of the build (as the US will be the maind amage source). Indeed, you might quickly end up in a situation where just abandoning the natural attacks to fully focus on the US would be best.
popsthe3rd wrote: I guess I'd need to look a little more into the math and count out and compare the feat investments to see what would feel comfortable from a gameplay perspective. Polymorphing is basically killing two birds with one stone - not only is it easiest and quickest way to get pounce (apart from Synthesist), but it also grants a bunch of natural weapons. Polmyorphing is not mandatory to make a good natural attack build, but it's de facto mandatory to make a great one. A pounce build can actually make do with a lower full attack damage as it doesn't need to compensate for losing a turn whenever the target isn't adjacent, something that can help prevent animosity from other players.
popsthe3rd wrote: The polymorph "general form" loss of the kobolds natural effects turns me off a bit from the flavor perspective A Weretouched Shifter allows you to turn into a hybrid form that "is roughly the same size and shape as [your] natural form, albeit with bestial qualities such as digitigrade legs or shaggy fur". So you'd probably end up as a kobold with feathers, I guess.
Before selecting any class(es), there're some more basic questions you should ask yourself:
• Am I fine with Synthesist Summoner?
• Do I want to use Weapon Finesse?
• If yes, do I want to build based on an Agile AoMF?
• Am I fine with polymorphing?
• If no, am I fine with the Weretouched's hybrid form?
• Do I want pounce, and if yes how early?
• What's the minimum number of natural weapon I'd be fine with?
• How important is utility and out-of-combat stuff to me?
• In regard to that, would I like spellcasting? Or alchemy?
• Is there any other specific stuff I would like (e.g. Rage or Trapfinding)?
• At which level do I want which combat capabilities (i.e. am I OK with weaker early levels)?
• How do I stand regarding (different styles of) multiclassing?
Actually selecting classes should only come afterwards.
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