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Glad you found some interesting stuff in there. Monstrous Extremities is a huge boon to any natural attack build that isn't just polymorphing

I played a less-effective variant of this using an Oracle that transitioned into Dragon Disciple; Lunar mystery has a revelation that grants some temporary natural attacks, either claws or gore. It was actually a lot of fun, especially around level 7 when I had my highest number of attacks compared to others (The bite/tail/hoof/hoof/claw combo). The biggest issue was deciding how much to buff (spending two rounds at the beginning of battle is a real detriment), which the Warpriest should get around more easily, and tracking the dice as mentioned above (I had limited use claws from a couple of different sources, and an improved 1.5str-to-damage bite that only worked with the DD claws, etc), but ultimately he was very capable, and played well from level 2 on (because I only had bite at level 1, should be much more devastating earlier this route). Ended up going to level 13, and never felt a real drop in effectiveness, and the roleplay of being a miniature champion for the weak didn't get old XD.

Thanks a lot

I think laying some more groundwork is in order.

The number one reason why natural weapon builds are competitive is because they can get a bunch of attack as full BAB and full strength

I think that it's the full strength bonus that is creating some confusion. I do understand the rest of your list (and really appreciate it), particularly the reason you need to focus on getting pounce.

You first responded with the list before I had seen some of the other responses and I was more skeptical about being able to achieve a worthwhile damage ability modifier where the loss from primary vs. secondary natural attacks became really relevant.

For this reason I figured I would need to be generating damage from sneak attacks or other stuff anyway, with the natural weapons acting as a way to generate a ton of sneak attack dice for instance*. With some of the more recent builds people have recommended that can start to approach more meaningful damage bonuses I can see how it becomes more important.

* I now see how important pounce would be for this, thanks for the help

Since you didn't reply to my post, is everything cleared up regarding natural attacks (the primary/secondary stuff), and polymorphing? I'm not sure you understand how big the difference between primary and secondary attacks is.

I think I'm clear on the natural attack functions and polymorph. It took a while to figure out how polymorph was different from my expectations and I have to check a lot what effects the different spell levels give you but I think I get it.

The polymorph "general form" loss of the kobolds natural effects turns me off a bit from the flavor perspective, but I guess I'd need to look a little more into the math and count out and compare the feat investments to see what would feel comfortable from a gameplay perspective.

Unarmed strike stuff

Thanks for the explanation.

popsthe3rd wrote:

This makes me think the key is balancing the (diminishing) returns from multiclassing for more claws.

Any good melee character build is a complicated balancing act, but I'm not sure what you mean by a diminishing return on multiclassing. Like I was saying before, Barbarian Rage stacks with Alchemal Strength Mutagen, and that stacks with Freebooter's Bane. You don't want to spend too much time self-buffing at the start of combat, but 1 round of self buffing...

This is an answer to the question I was I guess indirectly asking. It sounds taking 4 classes before level 10 would be not just viable, but your recommendation from a strength of build perspective. Which is cool to me!

Feral Champion Warpriest with the Fate's Favored trait.

I love this, thanks for your little errata about the impact of the kobolds small size, still super awesome.

-Two hoof attacks from casting Monstrous Extremities on yourself in the morning (has hours/level duration). This starts at level 7.

Worship Apsu (thematic for a Kobold anyway). Deity's favored weapon is bite, and the archetype grants claws that automatically scale with Sacred Weapon, so use your free Weapon Focus on whichever natural attack you prefer (Tail for earliest use, hoof for earliest use on two weapons probably the best choice, wings for earliest use on two permanent weapons).

Oh hell yes, excellent additions.

Regular martials will probably be closer to +25/+20/+15 at 1d8+15, but you are making literally triple their number of attack rolls, and you started with a small Kobold.

and you started with a small Kobold.

Quoted for emphasis

Honestly, I found the most irritating thing was keeping track of all the little differences between natural attacks when making my rolls (some have +1 to hit from Weapon Focus, some don't, few different die sizes), so make a cheat sheet.

Appreciate the tip. Did you play this little monster? Between what levels? Was it as good a time as it looks?

If you wanted to max out a Kobold for doing natural weapon damage...I like Fighter. Select Natural for weapon training. That adds to all of your natural attacks. Full BAB. Tons of combat feats. Also the Kobold racial preferred class choice for fighter is +1/2 damage to weapon attacks vs opponents they flank or are denied dex bonus.

What will really make this build blow up are the Advanced Weapon Training options....

Thanks a lot for this post, I had overlooked the whole interaction of getting Weapon Focus to apply to everything. I like the idea of being basically a fighter (with a little multiclass flavor mixed in for more natural attacks) who uses the natural attacks and this seems like a cool approach.

So, this tells me you want to go for a big Full Attack. That's very reasonable. And this is a good start: when it comes to Natural Attacks, the more you get, the more you get. So let's see how many we can get.

Derklord wrote:

There're three things you want on a natural attack build:

1) More natural attacks. There're multiplce classes that can grant natural attacks, as well as some feats and items. Bloodrager can get claws (while raging) at 1st level, and a Shifter can basically get almost any 2 natural attacks while not-polymorphed at 1st level, with no time limit.

It is not very often when Derklord and I agree on anything: take heed!

....

Thanks a lot for the informative post

Some other ways to get a Claw Attack:...

This makes me think the key is balancing the (diminishing) returns from multiclassing for more claws.

Nails are available as a Witch's Hex. They are not as good as Claws: Secondary instead of Primary natural attacks, but you are already getting a Tail Attack, and that is a Secondary Natural Attack, so you'll be taking Multiattack, anyway.
...

I had been wondering about a 2 level dip into witch for nails and hair, additionally this would qualify for Extra Hex if there's anything else I wanted. A dip in Hag Riven archetype witch would be really great but the class is banned from multiclassing I think.

Unarmed Strikes
If you combine Unarmed Strikes in with your Full Attack...

I didn't realize the full scale of how this part worked. Thanks. Is there a limit on the utility of the strikes here? Can you punch + claw? I imagine you can at least kick + claw?

The by far easiest solution is Synthesist Summoner. Takes care of your ability score issues right from the beginning (everything else takes a few levels), grants pounce at 1st level (again earlier than anythign else), and a good, scales-with-level amount of natural attacks.

This is a cool solution that I wouldn't have thought of, thanks.

The problem is way worse than that. The RP system is horribly done, with ability score changes ridiculously underrated. In a proper RP system that correctly vlaues ability scores and doesn't overvalue minor skill bonuses, I'd estimate Kobold at a notable negative RP value. That fits the reality, as a race without any features would be significantly better!

We can definitely agree here. I guess the challenge is part of why I tried to do this.

If you want to go natural weapons, go all in. Combining manufactured and natural weapons is a dead end.

Is this because of cost limitations? If you could get your hands on any sort of mildly enchanted light weapon with better dice than your claws isn't it a net improvement?

I was under the impression tail weapons were weapons, so you'd have to elect it as your primary or forgo it. Would you recommend forgoing?

Perhaps I have misinterpreted Natural Attacks. In the case that you have a bite and two claws are you able to use each of these as a "primary" attack? I thought you would need to elect just one of your "moves" as the primary.

I guess I also imagined that after a certain level a high BAB class like slayer would have enough "primary" attacks per round that they would want to elect a primary attack (such as claw or a dagger or something) to take advantage and use the rest as secondary. This would be particularly true in the case that you are sneak attacking to maximize dice rolls.

You clearly have more experience than me though so maybe I'm doing the math wrong.

There're three things you want on a natural attack build:

1) More natural attacks. There're multiplce classes that can grant natural attacks, as well as some feats and items. Bloodrager can get claws (while raging) at 1st level, and a Shifter can basically get almost any 2 natural attacks while not-polymorphed at 1st level, with no time limit.
2) Pounce. Hard to get except via polymorph builds. The earliest apart from Synthesist is Shifter at 4th level.
3) Attack and damage roll bonuses. Almost impossible to get via feats. Some options include Investigator, Warpriest, and Barbarian/Bloodrager (dex-based archetypes or unchained Barb).

It seems to me using Slayer Talents/Ranger Combat feats on the natural weapon line is a good way to get permanent claws other than Shifter?

While I understand that it can be quite a few claws per day I'm still a little concerned that if the whole build is based around natural weapons it'd be frustrating to have to ration them. Or even wake up in the middle of the night etc.

Weretouched Shifter gets 2 primary NAs at 1st level, and 5 primary NAs plus pounce at 4th level, without issues with armor/equipment. Practically dead afterwards it...

It is unclear to me if you keep the kobold natural attacks in hybrid form in the rules? I assume the gliding wings would be up to DM discretion as that's more of a niche thing.

I kind of liked the idea of not using polymorph effects, partially just because these are available to all races and I liked the idea of using the kobolds innate... underpoweredness.

However the dragonskinned werekobold seems quite lovely especially if rules and forms allow you to truly add those NAs onto the bite and tail whip you can get as a kobold for... well a whole lot of NAs.

But again, see above for my (mis)understanding of primary/secondary Natural Attacks.

Not spending money on weapons is offset by the insane price of the Amulet of Mighty Fists. Which is necessary for Dex-to-DMG without 19 levels of UnRogue for Finesse Training on three natural attacks.

Natural attacks mean that you are going to be close to the enemy... which makes that penalty to Constitution even worse.

I also noticed that Eldricht Claws requires 15 Strength (?) which doesn't make all of this any easier.

That feat seems pretty much mandatory which means putting a lot of resources into strength.

Have you considered a Beastmorph/Vivisectionist Alchemist build?

I had not but I see the appeal! Without multiclassing though I am not sure how this class could get (permanent?) claws (and thus Multiattack).

Giving up the extra attack and the 3 AB seems tough since you already are going to 3/4 AB although it might be that this is the cost of viability in other ways.

Given your Multi ability dependency, however, multiclassing such a vivisectionist build might be a good idea since you won't be maxing int.

Thanks for your response.

Hello, quite new here, wanted to see what the community might think of this idea.

To start, this build by its nature is probably not going to be very min-maxed or "competitive" so to speak but I'm still interested in what people think of it's mechanical viability within its own lane and if there are clear improvements I am missing.

A cursory search of these forums found that his has come up before from time to time but not quite what I was looking for.

The builds in this thread: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs2q7h5?Kobold-plus-Noxious-Bite#1
are probably the most similar to what I'm talking about but are focused on Noxious Bite and Dragon Disciple more than I had been thinking.

Kobolds only have 5 RP so I understand they are going to be undertuned. I think some DMs might consider making the Kobold stat adjustment a little less punitive but for the purposes of the post lets use the standard ruleset (-4 Str, +2 Dex, -2 Con)

The high level concept:

• Dragonmaw for a bite attack
  
• Tail terror for a tail attack
  
• Claws from Ranger Combat or Barbarian

Pros and Cons:

• + I believe RAW the Kobold can get Multiattack with Tail+Claws+Bite for quite a few attacks per round without TWF, using a one handed weapon or the tail weapon as primary attack
• + Can take the Gliding Wings for further badass descriptions of your little ball of pain combat antics
• + Won't spend as much on weapons as other kobolds (?)
• +/- Day Raider trait is a clear overall improvement to the core kobold in most cases
• - Atrocious kobold statblock
• - Needs Eldricht Claws, in the end it may cost more feats to claw fight than TWF
• What's a Will save?

In the build posted above or any barbarian build I can think of you are really hampered by your lack of strength score. The additional attacks are less interesting given that you only add half your strength bonus anyway.

To try to combat this, my idea was to use Sneak Attacks from the Slayer class which can also gives you the Ranger Combat Style needed to get your Aspect of the Beast Claws.

The Bounty Hunter archetype allows you to substitute Dirty Tricks for Sneak Attacks.

• If somehow you have enough feats to take the Kobold-only Merciless Precision you can gain a d6 on all sneak attacks against a target who you are able to Blind or Entangle as part of your dirty trick.
• Kitsune style would further synergize but this would occur pretty late due to lack of feats
• The Bounty Hunter also grants weapon proficiencies in Nets and other entangling weapons that might synergize with this. However this delays your claws slayer talent to level 4.
• The grapple related stuff isn't as useful given that you are size Small although you at least get proficiency in the Bong Dans to counteract this.

Feat wishlist:

• Weapon Finesse
• Tail Fighter
• Multiattack
• Eldricht Claws
• Merciless Precision
• Kitsune Style feats (incl. Improved Dirty Trick)
• Combat Stamina (if used)

The Avalancher archetype provides various bonuses to an attacker who is falling to sneak attack their target which feels like it should be a slam dunk when coupled with gliding wings and a teammate with some sort of magical propulsion - but I don't really see it as the bonuses still aren't that good and you're going to be spending time and energy getting into position to do your avalanche attack.

So those are my thoughts so far. Are there any synergistic Slayer/Rogue/Ninja talents or feats that I've missed? Is Merciless Precision worthwhile? Is any of this worthwhile compared to a more normal 'bold sneak attacker TWFing some daggers? What do ya think?

Thanks for reading