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Is Stealth considered a skill that you can take 20 on? For example, you hear fighting down the hallway, and you know that the antagonists won't get to your room immediately. Can you take the time to really hide well and take 20 on the Stealth check?
The way I see it, you should be able to, as you do all the little things to help you blend in better, finding the right spot to stand in so that nothing sticks out to give you away or casts shadows in a bad angle, get a secure footing so that the floor doesn't creak under you, etc. But some people consider failure to be an automatic successful perception check against you, therefore you can't Take 20. Thoughts, comments, opinions?
["Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding."
"Since taking 20 assumes that your character will fail many times before succeeding, your character would automatically incur any penalties for failure before he or she could complete the task (hence why it is generally not allowed with skills that carry such penalties)."]
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Yes, but. Here's my take on it:
Taking 20 on a stealth check is a great way to simulate something like a hunter blind. The hunter took a long time setting up this hiding place, camouflaging it, and so on. Nobody was around while they were setting it up, so there's no penalty for failure.
If you are hiding while someone is down the hall potentially in earshot, then they heard you moving about in there, since you are assumed to have failed before you succeeded. Doesn't stop you from taking 20 as long as you have the time, but the people you're hiding from might take a bit more time looking for you, since they were alerted to your presence while you were hiding.
You obviously can't take 20 to actively sneak past someone. It would only be possible to hide before someone came looking for you. You'd also be stuck in that spot, as soon as you move, that's a new stealth check.
I'd rule the following way: It works as long as there are no opposed Perception checks. So you can create an excellent ambush - as long as you don't get surprised during your long preparation.
However, when an opponent appears, you have to strike at them in the first round possible. If you try to bide your time and stay in hiding for at least one round, you have to roll Stealth vs. Perception normally. Maybe with a generous bonus of +5.
Going by the rules, it would take about 40 minutes to take 20 on a stealth check (most checks really) and during those 40 minutes you would be *very* obvious what you are doing (as it implies you have gone through all the possible results of your skill checks, including Nat 1)
Where do you get the 40 minutes? Take 20 takes x20 time, and a stealth check does not take 2 minutes. Though I will agree that it is very obvious (Nat 1 + stealth).
Does anyone remember any ambush scenarios in a published adventure and what stealth dc they used?
I don't see why you wouldn't be able to take 20.
Nothing states that rolling a 1 on a stealth check is an automatic failure. A 1 is just a 1. For example, lets say you're just rolling under normal circumstances. You have a +20 and you roll a 1. Your total is 21. Unless someone makes a perception check that beats your 21 stealth they do not see you. Even if they roll a nat 20 they will not see you unless they have a bonus.
Additionally, there is no penalty for failure. If in the above scenario someone beats your dc 21 check. There is nothing preventing you from creating a distraction and hiding again. What's more when you make that second check you do not suffer any sort of penalty to your check. If you failed at your bluff check to create a distraction you just don't get to hide.
As for duration to take 20. It takes 20 times the normal length of time. Normally it takes a move action to hide. 1 round is 6 seconds and you get 2 move actions a round. So, it would take 10 rounds or 1 minute to take 20 on the stealth check.
Provided of course that you meet the pre-requistes for taking 20.
When you have plenty of time, you are faced with no threats or distractions, and the skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure, you can take 20. In other words, if you roll a d20 enough times, eventually you will get a 20. Instead of rolling 1d20 for the skill check, just calculate your result as if you had rolled a 20.
So, if no one is threatening or observing you for the 1 minute it takes then you are good to go. If battle is going on next door then you should be fine. Unless someone next door takes the time to make a perception check then that might allow them to detect you. It doesn't prevent you from taking 20. But in that case taking 20 probably wouldn't help as they noticed you over the combat through a closed door.
Distance to the source, object, or creature +1/10 feet
Through a closed door +5
Unfavorable conditions +2
Creature making the check is distracted +5
Assuming you're not trying to hide right next to the door the enemy is probably at least 50 feet away from you meaning they need to make a perception check against
1+Your modifer+5(for distance)+5(closed door)+2(because of fighting)+5(because they are distracted) = 1+your mod+17.
Your 1 at that point is the same as if you'd rolled an 18.
I don't see any way to make opposed checks before the opposition arrives, nor do I see a way to continue to make the opposed stealth checks if you've been spotted.
Constructing blinds seems like creating cover; I don't see much need for a skill check there, you need the cover to hide in the first place. If the blind would help you, then you needed the blind to even try in the first place.
You can take 20 on a stealth check via the monster "freeze" ability.
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I'd say you can't take 20 on Stealth simply because you can only take 20 if all of the following apply:
- You have plenty of time.
Nope (because the fourth doesn't apply)
- You are faced with no threats or distractions.
Yes.
- The skill being attempted carries no penalties for failure.
No, because the penalty for failure is being discovered. You also don't know whether you succeed on Stealth until they roll their Perception checks, so you can't try again because you don't have the feedback of previous failure. At least with Perception, if you look for something and don't find anything, you can try again because you failed to find anything.
- The skill has to have an associated amount of time in making the check, whether an action type or a duration expressed in rounds, minutes, hours, etc.
No. Taking 20 takes 20 times as long as making a single check would take, so the skill has to be one that has an associated time needed to make the check, but Stealth doesn't, since it's made as part of movement (or lack thereof if you're hiding) rather than taking a separate action, unless you're hiding after sniping, which is a move action, but that's irrelevant.
After doing some further research I realize that my treatment of stealth is to overcome the issue of ties and isn't strictly raw. I don't think about it being an opposed roll. IMO when you make a stealth check you are setting the DC required to see you via perception.
The problem is that by RAW if character 1 rolls a stealth check and character 2 rolls perception and the two characters tie. The rules do not indicate who wins said tie. The rules instead state:
Character 1 failed to hide because their check was not higher than the perception check and Character 2 failed to notice Character 1 because their perception check did not beat the stealth check. This means character 1 is both not hidden and not observed at the same time.
If you instead treat stealth as setting a DC it removes such issues.
I suppose by RAW you literally can't hide if no one is around. So, if you want to hide well you'll need a spotter in the form of a minion who looks for you. They close their eyes and you hide. They then open their eyes and tell you if they see you. Rinse and repeat until they can't spot you. But they better not leave the room or else you'll lose your check, making you suddenly not hidden any more (even if you don't move or otherwise leave your hiding spot).
On a side note, by RAW you also can't hide anything on your person via sleight of hand unless someone is watching you do it or they are actively frisking you. Then you can try to conceal items/weapons while they are frisking you. Instead of it being done prior to you being searched....
Ties have the same problem as simultaneously the frisker fails to find the item while you fail to hide it.
The Stealth rules spell out how to resolve the opposed check in the case of a tie:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.
In other words, ties go to the sneaker, as the perceiver didn't beat the sneaker's Stealth check.
On the original topic:
Taking 20 means you are trying until you get it right, and it assumes that you fail many times before succeeding.
If your character has no means of evaluating whether they "got it right", then they cannot take 20. This is simple enough when picking a lock, as "got it right" means they either disable the device or find it impossible to disable.
In general, taking 20 doesn't really make sense for rolls that you make in which the result isn't immediately known or in which you cannot try again when it becomes known that you failed.
(Edit: Removed extraneous example.)
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The Stealth rules spell out how to resolve the opposed check in the case of a tie:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment.In other words, ties go to the sneaker, as the perceiver didn't beat the sneaker's Stealth check.
Not what the rules say. You checked only stealth, but perception says the same:
Some skill checks are opposed by the target’s skill check. When making an opposed skill check, the attempt is successful if your check result exceeds the result of the target.
....
Perception
Check: Perception has a number of uses, the most common of which is an opposed check versus an opponent’s Stealth check to notice the opponent and avoid being surprised.
...
Stealth
Check: Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you.
Both are "opposed checks" and both win if the other check doesn't beat their check.
I agree with you that, if the guy trying to use stealth can't check how well he is hiding he can take 10 but can't take 20.
We can add the problem that stealth is somewhat directional. If I am hiding behind a statue and you enter the room from the door behind me and not the door in front of me I can lack cover and so the ability to use stealth against you while I am perfectly positioned to use stealth against the guy entering the room from the frontal door.
Taking 20 on a Stealth check in advance of the opposition to the check is seemingly impossible. Or at least completely irrelevant until the opposition to your check is present, at which point it's just your check vs their check, and all of your preparations don't provide so much as a circumstance bonus... according to the rules, at least.
It might be easier to look for rules on disguising something, concealing or hiding a trap or object. If you can find adequate camouflage to hide a body, or large backpack, or a chest, or whatever... you probably have the necessary skills to hide yourself with the same static check that it would take to locate the object you concealed. I doubt that your personal Stealth skill has anything to do with your ability to hide objects, though, so you would probably be better off just doing a Stealth check when there's something to hide from.
The 40 minutes was correct. Sort of. It is actually 20 minutes and requires a friend.
When you stealth, it is opposed to a perception check. If your friend does a Take-20 on their Perception check, the will take 1 minute and you will know if your stealth is good enough to pass their best opposed check. Since your stealth is random, you can Take-20 on it against your friend's Take-20 Perception, which will get you your best check possible. Your friend will then have to hide....
There is a problem here, in that your friend can only find you if your check is not sufficient for their check. If you beat their best check with a 17, then you will not have any way to determine if you really have a 17, 18, 19, or 20 for your roll.
A simpler and quicker way might be for your friend to Aid Another your stealth check, and then give you a +2. If you have two friends, you could do your Take-20 and get a +2, or perhaps have both aid you for +4.
Just remember, anyone aiding you will have to hide without your help.
/cevah