Hi everyone,
Just a small trick for Bards who want to use these compositions at the same time without using Harmonize. You need your party initiative to be grouped together (so, it works better against bosses).
Just follow the following sequence:
You play: Inspire Courage + Lingering Composition
Your party plays (Inspire Courage bonus)
Enemies play
You delay
Your party plays (Inspire Courage bonus)
You get out of delay: Inspire Defense
Enemies play (Inspire Defense bonus)
Your party delays
You play: Inspire Courage
Your party plays (Inspire Courage bonus)
And so on...
So you can maintain Inspire Courage all the time while having Inspire Defense every two rounds (or three if you don't want to lose a round of Lingering Composition).
Hope this helps.
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I don't think the Frightened duration persists after the end of Dirge of Doom. It has a duration of one round, so it should stop all effects after this round.
Other ways to give the Frightened condition either don't have a duration or have a duration of "varies".
Disagree. Frightened ticks down at the end of the Frightened person's turn and nothing about Dirge changes that (except for preventing it from ticking down to 0 while it's active).
Mask of Terror has a duration of one minute and imposes Frightened 2, but that doesn't make the Frightened condition last a minute. That's just the duration of the specific effect the spell grants. Dirge is the same way.
Disagree. Frightened ticks down at the end of the Frightened person's turn and nothing about Dirge changes that (except for preventing it from ticking down to 0 while it's active).
Mask of Terror has a duration of one minute and imposes Frightened 2, but that doesn't make the Frightened condition last a minute. That's just the duration of the specific effect the spell grants. Dirge is the same way.
Right now, I haven't found anything supporting your reading.
Frightened can have 2 ways of being removed, it's the case for all other conditions. For example, Ray of Enfeeblement gives you the Enfeebled condition without duration. So it wears off as soon as the spell expires or if you find a way to reduce your Enfeebled condition (like Restoration).
Where does it state that conditions end immediately if the effect causing it ends? I'm trying to get a feel for all the ins and outs of this ruleset and that interpretation feels counter-intuitive to me.
Well, that would mean that Ray of Enfeeblement and Invisibility are permanent. So, I think it's quite clear the end of a spell ends all the conditions it applies.
Invisibility is actually a good example of a Condition that lasts until it is removed or until the spell ends, like Frightened.
So, you isolate the main effect of Dirge of Doom and consider that this is not a direct effect but an ongoing effect and as a consequence you have Dirge of Doom effect lingering outside its duration allowing you to cumulate its effect with another composition's.
If this is the only reason, then it won't happen at my table :)
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It reads to me like the specific rules for Frightened ("frightened ticks down by 1 at the end of each turn") override any more general rules for condition durations.
Otherwise how does Phantasmal Killer (which has a duration of Instant) apply Frightened 4? Same issue with Wail of the Banshee and the Drained condition.
Unless a spell specifically says it overrides the normal rules for a condition, it seems like the normal rules should apply.
I will say your trick is cool and useful even if the Dirge trick works, like I think it does.
It reads to me like the specific rules for Frightened ("frightened ticks down by 1 at the end of each turn") override any more general rules for condition durations.
Otherwise how does Phantasmal Killer (which has a duration of Instant) apply Frightened 4? Same issue with Wail of the Banshee and the Drained condition.
Unless a spell specifically says it overrides the normal rules for a condition, it seems like the normal rules should apply.
Most conditions have special ways of being removed. Still, you don't want Invisibility to last above 10 minutes.
So, the reason why these spells have conditions lasting above their duration is because of the ongoing effect rule that burntgerb quoted: "Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."
Now, the question is what is an ongoing effect and what isn't. Being "part of the spell duration's entry" is not crystal clear to me, maybe because I'm not a native english speaker. If it's more clear to you I'll be happy to have an explanation.
But if I look at first edition Dirge of Doom and if I cross with the fact that most (if not all) compositions have a duration of one round and that you can't cumulate 2 compositions at the same time, I'll tend to rule at my table that Dirge of Doom Frightened effect is not an ongoing effect, and as such it wears off as soon as you are no more subject to Dirge of Doom (either because the duration expires or because you are in an Antimagic Field, for example).
It reads to me like the specific rules for Frightened ("frightened ticks down by 1 at the end of each turn") override any more general rules for condition durations.
Otherwise how does Phantasmal Killer (which has a duration of Instant) apply Frightened 4? Same issue with Wail of the Banshee and the Drained condition.
Unless a spell specifically says it overrides the normal rules for a condition, it seems like the normal rules should apply.
Most conditions have special ways of being removed. Still, you don't want Invisibility to last above 10 minutes.
So, the reason why these spells have conditions lasting above their duration is because of the ongoing effect rule that burntgerb quoted: "Some spells have effects that remain even after the spell’s magic is gone. Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical. For instance, a spell that creates a loud sound and has no duration might deafen someone for a time, even permanently. This deafness couldn’t be counteracted because it is not itself magical (though it might be cured by other magic, such as restore senses)."
Now, the question is what is an ongoing effect and what isn't. Being "part of the spell duration's entry" is not crystal clear to me, maybe because I'm not a native english speaker. If it's more clear to you I'll be happy to have an explanation.
But if I look at first edition Dirge of Doom and if I cross with the fact that most (if not all) compositions have a duration of one round and that you can't cumulate 2 compositions at the same time, I'll tend to rule at my table that Dirge of Doom Frightened effect is not an ongoing effect, and as such it wears off as soon as you are no more subject to Dirge of Doom (either because the duration expires or because you are in an Antimagic Field, for example).
I think Frightened is a condition independent of the spell one it is put out. I don't think the frightened condition would act differently between a spell source and any other source. Mostly, that's due to the rules quoted above discussing deafened, a different condition that seems like it should be treated similarly.
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I think Frightened is a condition independent of the spell one it is put out. I don't think the frightened condition would act differently between a spell source and any other source. Mostly, that's due to the rules quoted above discussing deafened, a different condition that seems like it should be treated similarly.
Well, I have no issue with that, I just don't find a rule that states it clearly. I actually find the rules about ongoing effects to be too vague.
For example, why is Phantasmal Killer a spell without duration and Fear a spell with a duration? All the effects of Fear are in Phantasmal Killer...
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So in looking at the Dirge issue, I think both sides are, kinda-sorta, correct.
First, let's look at Frightened:
"Unless specified otherwise, at the end of each of your turns, the value of your frightened condition decreases by 1." So normally, after the creature takes its turn, it would no longer be frightened, but
Dirge of Doom:
"Foes in the area are frightened 1. They can't reduce their frightened value below 1 while they remain in the area."
So, there's two possibilities:
1. Bard plays Dirge of Doom, Monster A is frightened.
2. Monster A takes his turn, is frightened 1 and doesn't move. Monster A is still in Bard's emanation area and so frightened doesn't decrease and Monster A is still frightened 1.
3. Bard takes his next turn and doesn't play Dirge. Dirge "ends" but Monster A still has frightened 1.
4. Monster A takes its next turn, at the end of which, Monster A is no longer frightened.
Option 2:
1. Bard plays Dirge of Doom, Monster A is frightened.
2. Monster A takes his turn and moves out of the emanation before the end of his turn.
3. End of Monster A's turn he is no longer frightened.
All the 1 round duration really does is determine how long the emanation is active. The duration of the frightened state isn't affected by the duration of Dirge per se (except for the monster still being in the emanation).
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Another way for a bard to throw up Inspire Courage and Inspire Defense is to summon a Satyr to inspire courage and then use Inspire Defense themselves. Not exactly ideal, certainly more resource intensive, but still might be useful.
I think we've found some serious table variation where Dirge to concerned. If you're at a table where Dirge is interpreted to be less powerful, then using your trick to stack both buffs seems really good.
I think we've found some serious table variation where Dirge to concerned. If you're at a table where Dirge is interpreted to be less powerful, then using your trick to stack both buffs seems really good.
Yes, I even think it would be good to ask for a clarification on that. Because it's really an issue in words. This sentence: "Any ongoing effect that isn’t part of the spell’s duration entry isn’t considered magical." needs to be properly explained. Right now, it gives room for interpretation, a lot of it.
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Dirge is already *extremely* good. Yes, some things are immune, but to things that aren't, it's the best debuff in the game. That being said, I'm in the camp of assuming the Frightened ends immediately if you stop performing, otherwise you'd get this:
* Bard sings Dirge
* Bard sings Inspire Courage (Dirge ends, but frightened persists)
* Bard does whateverThat's a way to get the effects of 2 compositions on your turn. Even if you only get a partial benefit from dirge (no penalty to the enemies AC/saves after it's had its turn), I still think it wasn't intended to work that way
You would need to use harmonize to do that because there is a restriction that only one composition can be cast per turn:
https://2e.aonprd.com/Traits.aspx?ID=31
Still, I think the stacking over 2 turns is the strongest thing the Bard could be doing versus relatively immobile enemies. That might be deemed too good by GMs given the somewhat unclear rules. I, however, think the rules do spell out that that stacking works, so I'm playing it that way at the table I'm running.
Well one way of looking at it is that frightened is a condition, not an "effect". While real world examples are, of course, not always the best analogy, think of a gun shot. Somebody shoots a gun at you, and misses, you don't necessarily stop being scared simply because there is a not a steady stream of bullets going non-stop.