Is my friend playing Titan Mauler wrong?


Rules Questions


So I will say at the outset that I don't know my friend's entire build.

His Titan Mauler at lvl 6 with a +1 Vicious Lucerne Hammer and Power Attack is +10 to hit and deals 3d6+15 (+2d6 vicious) damage and he's just mopping the floor with everything we fight.

Like I said I don't know every feat and rage power he has so I'm not THAT worried about him calculating damage wrong. The key thing I'm curious about is if he's interpreting his REACH correctly because of the massive weapons ability. That is what really seems to be throwing his damage output over the edge because he also has Combat Reflexes and anything with less than 15 ft reach is taking a massive hit on it's way in from AoOs (plus brace damage if they charged).

Does wielding a LARGE reach weapon give a normal medium character a 15ft reach?
In other words, is reach based only on the creature or does the weapon size also add reach?

I'm not GMing this game so I'm not gonna make a fuss about it now but I am expecting to run the next game which will be a higher level and if he plans on bringing a version of this character I want to know that he's following the rules.


bigger weapons have absolutely no bearing on a characters reach. same with smaller weapons.

Liberty's Edge

Quote:

Reach Weapons: Glaives, guisarmes, lances, longspears, ranseurs, and whips are reach weapons. A reach weapon is a melee weapon that allows its wielder to strike at targets that aren’t adjacent to him. Most reach weapons double the wielder’s natural reach, meaning that a typical Small or Medium wielder of such a weapon can attack a creature 10 feet away, but not a creature in an adjacent square. A typical Large character wielding a reach weapon of the appropriate size can attack a creature 15 or 20 feet away, but not adjacent creatures or creatures up to 10 feet away.

...
Weapon Size: Every weapon has a size category. This designation indicates the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed.

A weapon’s size category isn’t the same as its size as an object. Instead, a weapon’s size category is keyed to the size of the intended wielder. In general, a light weapon is an object two size categories smaller than the wielder, a onehanded weapon is an object one size category smaller than the wielder, and a two-handed weapon is an object of the same size category as the wielder.

Inappropriately Sized Weapons: A creature can’t make optimum use of a weapon that isn’t properly sized for it. A cumulative –2 penalty applies on attack rolls for each size category of difference between the size of its intended wielder and the size of its actual wielder. If the creature isn’t proficient with the weapon, a –4 nonproficiency penalty also applies.

The measure of how much effort it takes to use a weapon (whether the weapon is designated as a light, one-handed, or two-handed weapon for a particular wielder) is altered by one step for each size category of difference between the wielder’s size and the size of the creature for which the weapon was designed. For example, a Small creature would wield a Medium one-handed weapon as a two-handed weapon. If a weapon’s designation would be changed to something other than light, one-handed, or two-handed by this alteration, the creature can’t wield the weapon at all.

No mention of the reach changing with the size of the weapon.

The rules for large or larger and tiny and smaller PCs aren't so clear, so there is space for GM interpretation, but the basic is that reach is directly related to the wielder base reach, not the weapon size.

The Titan Mauler archetype doesn't have any additional rule for search, so no, his reach stay that of a normal creature of his type and if he uses a reach weapon it doubles that.


So the only advantage to Massive Weapons ability is a larger damage die? (in this case 3d6 instead of 1d12)


Pretty much.

Also even if a weapon has the brace function, you must use that function to enjoy Brace.

Brace: If you use a readied action to set a brace weapon against a charge, you deal double damage on a successful hit against a charging creature

From core book.


Yeah, he doesn't get increased reach for using oversized weapons and in order to brace he has to take a readied action (which means not attacking on his turn as readying uses your standard action).

So basically he's breaking a couple rules, potentially without knowing it, that will severely reduce his damage output per round.


Oh yeah I understand how brace works but he's in a 3 person group with my Magus (who often casts a buff/debuff first round before entering melee) and his wife's Oracle (who is NEVER getting into melee, hopefully) so he usually braces the first round if he's expecting a charge (anytime one or more enemies have unimpeded line to attack him). 7d6+30 usually gets the job done at lvl 6.

It's the 15 ft reach that's really letting him do damage cuz I know he also has cleaving finish and that extra 5 ft gives him more targets he wouldn't normally get. Also, he's getting attacks by hitting enemies at 15 ft then they try to close to normal melee range of 5 ft and take an AoO where 10 ft reach wouldn't allow this (they just 5 ft step).

Basically a lot of his build is tailored around extra attacks or damage because of what his enemies do.


I mean, if he's constantly using brace it's should be on the GM at some point to say, "You know bracing is really obvious, the enemy might be aware of what you're doing and decide not to charge you".

Think about it, bracing involves putting the butt of the weapon against a surface that isn't going to move. It should be pretty obvious, an enemy might still choose to charge against an opponent but intelligent ones should definitely have an option to do something else.

It becomes very smart to attack a different target if possible, or at least not to charge to your own death. Perhaps the enemy pulls out ranged weapons instead.

Regardless, the improper reach part of this is probably what makes it so effective.


I should also note most of our enemies recently have been things like Giant Boar and other non-sentient creatures (we are scouting a forested area and clearing it of threats to allow a nearby village to expand).

Side question with brace though. Does HE have to be the target of the charge or does the charge just have to go through his threat range (from that one direction of course)?


Brief side note: bracing isn't necessarily bad or useless because it's obvious; if your actions result in your opponents taking sub-optimal actions, then that's a legit form of battlefield control. If he gives the two casters an extra round to cast spells or use ranged attacks or just gets a few enemies to change their plans, that can be a great way to spend a turn.


Check if he has the LUNGE feat. This WOULD give him 15 foot reach on his turn (so it would work for Cleaving Finish), but would NOT give him the extra reach for AoO's. A lot of people get that wrong, so it's possible that's where the confusion is coming from.

Also for Brace: Yes Bracing is obvious, but instead of Bracing on your turn you can ready an action to Brace if someone charges, which wouldn't be obvious at all. If this is just a matter of a newer player not knowing how that works I wouldn't slow the game down just to punish them for that.


Cleaving finish (and its pq feats) and combat reflexes takes up all of the feats for a 6th level human barbarian, so without a fighter dip he cannot have lunge.


Oh good point.

I also missed that he's level 6, so unless he took that fighter level this level he couldn't have it anyway.


So, some more math, at level 6 power attack is -2 to hit, and the large two handed weapon is another -4. So in order to have a net +10 this barb is getting +9 from strength and assorted buff spells/effects. Does he have buffs on him routinely or does he have a 24 strength before raging?


Java Man wrote:
So, some more math, at level 6 power attack is -2 to hit, and the large two handed weapon is another -4. So in order to have a net +10 this barb is getting +9 from strength and assorted buff spells/effects. Does he have buffs on him routinely or does he have a 24 strength before raging?

+10 to hit, +6 from bab, assume 22 str with rage for +6, at least +1 from weapon, maybe focus and a buff from magus +1?? just that is +15-6 from weapon and power attack is +9. not that hard to get +10 at level 6 full bab even with -6


All feats are accounted for, weapon is already stated as +1, 9 points of attack bonus must come from str and buffs from items other than weapon or spells/abilities from other party members.

Yes, this all is very possible, but I ask since the situation is very different if the barb ia achieveing all this on their own, or with teamwork.


Java Man wrote:

All feats are accounted for, weapon is already stated as +1, 9 points of attack bonus must come from str and buffs from items other than weapon or spells/abilities from other party members.

Yes, this all is very possible, but I ask since the situation is very different if the barb ia achieveing all this on their own, or with teamwork.

he said the magus pre-buffs all the time

Scarab Sages

It looks like his static bonus to damage is low. Assuming a 20 STR +4 raging for 24, that's +7 or +10 to damage with a 2-handed weapon. Plus 6 for power attack. +1 for magic is +17. And he could easily have a 22 or 23 base STR, as a belt is affordable by level 6, even with the +2 equivalent weapon, which would put his damage even higher.

For the to-hit, it could also be that they aren't interpreting the titan mauler penalties correctly. It should be:

-2 for oversized weapon.
-4 additional for Jotungrip.
+2 from being 6th level Titan Mauler
---
-4 which is what was stated earlier. But a lot of people confuse the -4 as being the only penalty, then reduce it from Titan Mauler, when it's on top of the existing -2 for an oversized weapon.

But if it's including buffs, haste would account for the extra +1. Or bull's strength is on the magus list.

The main issue here does seem to be calculating reach incorrectly. It's either 10 feet if he's remaining medium, or 15-20 feet if he's getting enlarge person from the magus. but there's no way to have exactly 15 foot reach with just the weapon. (if long arm is involved or something like that, it's possible, but it seems unlikely here, or lunge as mentioned would let him attack at 15 feet, but his reach would still only be 10).

Liberty's Edge

Ferious Thune wrote:


But if it's including buffs, haste would account for the extra +1. Or bull's strength is on the magus list.

The buffer is a sixth level magus, so haste is out of the equation as he gets 3rd level spells at level 7.

Bull strength is possible, and that is a +2 to hit and +3 to damage.
Unless they are using some sourcebook that I don't recall, that is the only buff that can be used on another guy by the magus, at that level. But its usefulness decreases if the barbarian has a belt of giant strength.

Scarab Sages

Well, the magus could be using scrolls or a wand of haste, though I admit that's unlikely to be happening on a regular basis. UMD is also a thing, so there could be Pragmatic Activator (or Eldritch Scion) and a wand of bless involved or any number of things. Pathfinder has lots of opportunities for little bonuses.

Dark Archive

MOST people who do the oversized schtick also have the giant blooded trait to cut penalties in half


(on the reach point) he's under the impression he has a 15 ft reach as he's getting AoO's 3 squares away (GM is newer to RPGs and mostly plays 5e these days so he actually relies on US for rules reference). He definitely has not dipped into Fighter I know that.

(his to hit bonus point) I have no buffs for him I usually cast shield on myself or something full party (most of which are lvl 3 spells and not usable et) if I'm casting a buff spell. I'm a Kensai so my reduced spells/day are usually dedicated to me dealing damage. You know, Shocking Grasp all day with pearls and maybe a scorching ray/magic missile if I need ranged damage. His wife as the Oracle loves throwing her Fire spells (blackened curse) or ill omen. She does have some buff spells but they are not the go to.

So here is what I recall about his abilities.
I believe he started with a +4 STR (exact score unknown).
Assuming STR score was 19 at start he could put lvl point to make it 20 and +5.
He does have a Belt of +2 STR. bringing him to +6.
Rage would bring him to STR 26/+8

So, BONUSES to hit: BAB +6, STR +8, Weapon bonus +1 = +15
PENALTIES to hit: PA -2 + Massive Weapon -4 (lvl 6 reduces penalty by 2) = -6
Combined that's a +9

So either he miscalculated somewhere, I'm forgetting a bonus, or I'm remembering his to hit wrong.


OH RIGHT! That's what I forgot. He is Giant-blooded. I've never actually read that so I didn't remember it.

Scarab Sages

Hydra wrote:
OH RIGHT! That's what I forgot. He is Giant-blooded. I've never actually read that so I didn't remember it.

Have him check his static damage bonus. It should be:

STR +12 (raging) + PA +6 + enhancement +1 = +19

I know that’s going in the opposite direction of what you hoped. It seems like he’s not calculating the x1 1/2 on his strength for wielding it two-handed.

But the reach is definitely only 10 feet.


Look I don't remember all his numbers. The static damage probably is higher than I listed. It wasn't the individual hits that seemed OP it was the NUMBER of hits he could dish out from AoO's due to reach.

I also could have been mixing up attack stats. Remembering damage from non-Power Attack (such as an AoO before his first turn thanks to Combat Reflexes) but the usual bonus of +10 to hit with PA.

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